Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostalism. (Full Version)

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The-Us-God -> Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostalism. (11/7/2006 7:35:37 PM)

http://trisagionseraph.tripod.com/opf.html

The above site will give you all the information you need if you are unfamiliar with the topic.

Pick whatever part you want and let's get a discussion going...Thanks



DaveW -> RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostalism. (11/8/2006 3:25:21 PM)

It boils down to a misunderstanding of the hebrew word Echad translated 'one."



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostalism. (11/8/2006 4:15:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

It boils down to a misunderstanding of the hebrew word Echad translated 'one."


What a beautiful baby, Dave[:)]



semperfidelis -> RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostalism. (11/8/2006 9:04:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

It boils down to a misunderstanding of the hebrew word Echad translated 'one."

And everyone rejoiced at the summary. Or rather, the Oneness peoples... um, pardon me.... one people rejoiced. Everywhere else, all peoples also rejoiced. [:D]

Short thread. [:D]



Ps103 -> RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostalism. (11/9/2006 11:52:33 AM)

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semperfidelis -> RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostalism. (11/9/2006 12:52:52 PM)

Like I said, short thread. [:D]



Ps103 -> RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostalism. (11/9/2006 1:20:44 PM)

[:D] Yup.



figmentPez -> RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostalism. (11/9/2006 1:52:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: semperfidelis

Like I said, short thread. [:D]


Unless someone who comes across this thread wants help in understanding why "oneness" doctrine is in contradiction to Biblical truth. There are quite a few Christians out there who hold beliefs very similar to "oneness"/modalism because they haven't studied what the Bible has to say about God's triune nature. Many of them call what they believe "trinity" but their actual belief has more in common with modalism than it does with proper trinitarian doctrine.



DaveW -> RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostalism. (11/9/2006 2:47:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: figmentPez

There are quite a few Christians out there who hold beliefs very similar to "oneness"/modalism because they haven't studied what the Bible has to say about God's triune nature. Many of them call what they believe "trinity" but their actual belief has more in common with modalism than it does with proper trinitarian doctrine.

Again it is a lack of understanding of "Echad." I have never heard a pastor in a regular christian church teach on this. (you do find it in messianic congregations)



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostalism. (11/12/2006 2:18:12 PM)

Where did everybody go?[sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif][:D]



figmentPez -> RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostalism. (11/12/2006 8:05:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hisllamb

Where did everybody go?[sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif][:D]


Off arguing in other threads against those who deny the trinity and have thus come to heretical doctrine (such as denying the resurrection or claiming that Christians are as divine as Christ is).



UnorthodoxChristian -> RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostalism. (11/12/2006 11:28:02 PM)

YACHID, ECHAD=Meaning Oneness through Unity, the Trinity is a unity, and they will get it mixed up and ignore the oneness through unity.



DaveW -> RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostalism. (11/13/2006 8:27:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UnorthodoxChristian

YACHID, ECHAD=Meaning Oneness through Unity, the Trinity is a unity, and they will get it mixed up and ignore the oneness through unity.
????

Hine ma tov u mah na-im shevet achim gam yachad.
Behold how good and pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity. Ps 133.1

Shema Yisrael: Adonai Elohenu, Adonai echad.
Hear O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. Deut 6.4

...l'basar echad.
...they shall become one flesh. Gen 2.24b

So you see the way Moses described God's "Oneness" is the same as His description of the oneness of man and wife. That there are still 2 individuals is evident to all, yet Jesus comments on this unity:

Mat 19:6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate."

Yachad actually is more of a singularity than echad. God's oneness is that of a composite unity, not an absolute singularity. When this is understood, Oneness modalism makes no sense whatsoever.



figmentPez -> RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostalism. (11/19/2006 6:16:31 PM)

In a now closed thread (referred to this one), this question was asked:

quote:

ORIGINAL: willowcreek

im curius about this because my neighbor told me they belong to a united pentecostal church and they were oneness but i couldnt him to tell me what they believe. does anyone here know of this church and its doctrines


"Oneness" isn't so much a cohesive doctrine as it is a rejection of doctrine. It's hard to say exactly what this group claims to believe, because they may not even know exactly what they believe. Such rebellion against the truth of scripture is always accompanied by twisting of words, changing of subjects and generally avoiding the issue. Here are some of the bottom line issues that these "oneness" believers are unlikely to admit to, when left to their own devices:

1. "Oneness" doctrine denies that Jesus Christ is the Son of God as defined by the Bible. They call Him the "son of god" but they don't mean the same thing that scripture does. Scripture tells us that everything begets it's own kind. Plants beget plants after their kind, animals beget animals after their kind, birds beget birds after their kind, man begets man. "Oneness" denies that God begets God. They believe that God begat a human body, and that's the only reason the Son was a son. Thus, without acknowledging it, they deny that the Son is the Son of God. True Christian doctrine believes that the Son was begotten of the Father before creation, True God of True God, and then became truly human at the incarnation, born of Mary.

2. "Oneness" denies that God suffered death on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins. They believe the human body the Father indwelt was all that died on the cross, they deny the Christian belief that the Son of God died on the cross for the forgiveness of sin. Many believe that the spirit of the Father wasn't even present when the body died, so much is their rejection of the truth that God needed to suffer and die for the forgiveness of sin.

These two major points lead to a fundamentally flawed understanding of scripture. If there is no acknowledgment of the person and deity of the Son, many portions of scripture cannot be properly understood. Christ cried out on the cross: "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." (Luke 23:46) "Oneness" claims that this is just the flesh body making the statement, but a body with it's own voice, it's own will, it's own mind, it's own spirit is a person! A person that they refuse to acknowledge, and outright deny the divinity of. A person who says He came down from heaven to do the will of His Father.

John 6:38-40
"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

"Oneness" cannot understand this verse! They have an I, a person, who came down from heaven, not to do His own will, but the will of the Father. Not only that, but this "I", which "Oneness" denies is deity, says that He will raise believers up on the last day. "Oneness", effectively, believes that we will be raised by a flesh and bones that is not God!

Modalistic doctrine is false and leads to grievous error in the practice of the Christian faith. The god of "Oneness" is not recognizably the God of the Bible.



Mr. -> RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostalism. (11/20/2006 1:01:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

quote:

ORIGINAL: UnorthodoxChristian

YACHID, ECHAD=Meaning Oneness through Unity, the Trinity is a unity, and they will get it mixed up and ignore the oneness through unity.
????

Hine ma tov u mah na-im shevet achim gam yachad.
Behold how good and pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity. Ps 133.1

Shema Yisrael: Adonai Elohenu, Adonai echad.
Hear O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. Deut 6.4

...l'basar echad.
...they shall become one flesh. Gen 2.24b

So you see the way Moses described God's "Oneness" is the same as His description of the oneness of man and wife. That there are still 2 individuals is evident to all, yet Jesus comments on this unity:

Mat 19:6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate."

Yachad actually is more of a singularity than echad. God's oneness is that of a composite unity, not an absolute singularity. When this is understood, Oneness modalism makes no sense whatsoever.


The Trinity has been a topic on my mind for some time and your post seems helpful. I had affirmed the Trinity since a child, mostly because that's what I was told to believe. I had thought of the Trinity in a way according to what you have said above. It was like what I've read in Ecclesiastes 4:12, "...a threefold cord is not quickly broken." Although there is One cord (God), it is threefold (Three Persons). It was more of a Oneness through Unity as you have mentioned.

Where I stand on the Trinity at this present time is not certain, but I desire to study and attempt to come to a better conclusion than the one I have presently. It may not be what others consider "orthodox", but I don't want to live my life based on the acceptance and approval of man. If people desire to help me in my search, that is appreciated, but I'm not really motivated by those who use condemnation as a means to convert. Whatever conclusion I come to will first of all be according to my own conscience, and not rather having a creed determine my beliefs for me, regardless if they both will agree or not.

Thanks for you insight Dave. I wish I understood Hebrew myself.



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostalism. (11/21/2006 7:48:37 PM)

I believe in the Triune God.

The Father is a Person, the Son is a Person, and the Holy Spirit is a Person.

(A) The Father is a Person. We can have fellowship with him, 1 John 1:3; he knows, Matthew 6:6-8; he teaches, Matthew 16:17; he loves, John 16:27; he is a witness, John 8:18; he has a will, John 5:30.

(B) The Son is a Person. We can have fellowship with him, 1 John 1:3; he knows, Matthew 11:27; he teaches, John 1:18, Rev. 2:18; he loves, Romans 8:35, Gal. 2:20; he is a witness, John 8:18; he has a will, John 5:30; he can be grieved, John 11:35.

(C) The Holy Spirit is a Person. We can have fellowship with him, Philippians 2:1, II Cor. 13:14; he knows, I Cor. 2:11; he teaches, Luke 12:12, I Cor. 2:13; he loves, Romans 15:30; he is a witness, Acts 20:23, Romans 8:16; he has a will, I Cor. 12:11; he can be grieved, Ephesians 4:30.


The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are personally distinct from one another.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are able to:

(A) Send or be sent by one another (John 3:17, 10:36, 14:23-26, 15:26, 16:7).

(B) Speak to each other (John 17:1-26, Romans 8:26-27, Hebrews 1:7-8) and about each other (Matthew 17:5, Mark 1:11, John 8:13-18).

(C) The Father and Son love and honor each other (John 3:35, 5:20, 14:31).

The Trinity doctrine -- that there is one God in three Persons -- summarizes these biblical truths without adding or subtracting anything from them.


http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a63.htm



Digrieze -> RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostalism. (11/24/2006 10:26:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

It boils down to a misunderstanding of the hebrew word Echad translated 'one."


Just to clarify for those not familiar with hebrew, ECHAD is normally translated "one". It does, however, imply an essential unity of distinct and diverse objects, therefore leaving room for trinitarian theologys. Although there is no direct english equivalent word (a very real part of the problem), a close example would be a bunch of grapes which though "one" bunch is made up of "distinctly individual" grapes.

Theology would be SO much easier if God had JUST had the consideration to learn english! (just joking).



willowcreek -> RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostalism. (11/25/2006 11:23:18 PM)

well i did finally get my neighbor to open up a bit more and he did say he does not believe in the trinity that its steeped in pagan tradition and teaching and you might as well say that god is a three headed monster revealed as three seperate gods and that a person who is not baptised in jesus name only and does not come up out of the water speaking in tongues does not have the holy spirit because speaking in tongues is evidence of the holy spirit and being baptised in jesus name asures the persons salvation. i have to ask him about the latter again i may have misunderstood him. the only thing that came to my mind was i guess that exempts the thief on the cross from going to heaven because he was neither baptised nor spoke in tongues. i wish there were spell checks on these things



figmentPez -> RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostalism. (11/26/2006 4:10:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willowcreek

well i did finally get my neighbor to open up a bit more and he did say he does not believe in the trinity that its steeped in pagan tradition and teaching and you might as well say that god is a three headed monster revealed as three seperate gods and that a person who is not baptised in jesus name only and does not come up out of the water speaking in tongues does not have the holy spirit because speaking in tongues is evidence of the holy spirit and being baptised in jesus name asures the persons salvation. i have to ask him about the latter again i may have misunderstood him. the only thing that came to my mind was i guess that exempts the thief on the cross from going to heaven because he was neither baptised nor spoke in tongues. i wish there were spell checks on these things


No, you didn't misunderstand your friend. The UPCI really believes that "in jesus name" is a magic incantation that guarantees salvation when accompanied by babbling in an unknown language (please do not misconstrue this statement and think I don't believe in tongues, I merely happen to be aware that there are counterfeit tongues out there and babbling is no sure sign of the Holy Spirit). Some UPCI believe that "in jesus name" has the power to get them everything from a promotion and new car to instant and perfect health. Others believe that just listening to someone cite scripture in support of trinitarian doctrine is a sin that they must repent of "in jesus name" (these words must be said aloud or typed for the offender to hear or see, because the magic incantation doesn't work if it's not spoken.) Their doctrine is pretty whacked out, and is based completely on ignorance in relation to a multitude of subjects. Trinitarian doctrine is in no way based on pagan religions, it is the truth of God as found in scripture.



willowcreek -> RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostalism. (11/28/2006 7:27:41 PM)

that explains alot to me my friend thanx



Superduck77 -> RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostalism. (11/28/2006 10:57:45 PM)

would seem that the site posted in BASHING oneness hm......... when one kicks against the ****s would seem they are fearing the subject....... hm makes one or the oneness people wonder dont it lol .......... hmmmmm........ lets us not forget that even Jesus said He and His father are ONE ........hm...... and for me that nuff said on the subject.



Superduck77 -> RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostalism. (11/28/2006 10:59:21 PM)

lol not a bad word lol there lol laughs when one would kick against the " p ricks" as saul done hm....... lol sheesh censor that lol laughs and posts this lol :PPPPppp~~~



figmentPez -> RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostalism. (11/28/2006 11:40:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Superduck77

would seem that the site posted in BASHING oneness hm......... when one kicks against the ****s would seem they are fearing the subject....... hm makes one or the oneness people wonder dont it lol .......... hmmmmm........ lets us not forget that even Jesus said He and His father are ONE ........hm...... and for me that nuff said on the subject.


I'm only preaching the Gospel, which includes the truth of God's nature as He has revealed it. Yes, the Son and the Father are One God. They are not, however, one person. There is a difference that scripture spells out very clearly. Have you actually read the thread? Do you have any rebuttal to any of the points made? Are you unclear on any of the reasons why "oneness"/modalism is heretical doctrine?



Superduck77 -> RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostalism. (11/29/2006 5:43:11 PM)

quote:

Thus, without acknowledging it, t"Oneness" denies that God suffered death on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins. They believe the human body the Father indwelt was all that died on the cross, they deny the Christian belief that the Son of God died on the cross for the forgiveness of sin hey deny that the Son is the Son of God


DO YOU HAVE IT ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL WRONG............lol i am upc and know that these statments are wrong lol sheesh get the facts we do believe that JESUS is the son of God and yes we do believe He died on the cross for the forgiveness of all sins, and as to the name hm the scripture even says it is the name above all names dont it lol hmmmmmm ............ we do call on that name bc after all it is HIS name
quote:

No, you didn't misunderstand your friend. The UPCI really believes that "in jesus name"is a magic incantation that guarantees salvation when accompanied by babbling in an unknown language
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
.....oh brother we dont deny the I am sheesh again your so wrong

quote:

when accompanied by babbling in an unknown language
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Thank you Jesus for your name the name above all names That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; OH HOW I LOVE THAT NAME ................ !



figmentPez -> RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostalism. (11/29/2006 6:12:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Superduck77

quote:

Thus, without acknowledging it, t"Oneness" denies that God suffered death on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins. They believe the human body the Father indwelt was all that died on the cross, they deny the Christian belief that the Son of God died on the cross for the forgiveness of sin hey deny that the Son is the Son of God


DO YOU HAVE IT ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL WRONG............lol i am upc and know that these statments are wrong lol sheesh get the facts we do believe that JESUS is the son of God and yes we do believe He died on the cross for the forgiveness of all sins, and as to the name hm the scripture even says it is the name above all names dont it lol hmmmmmm ............ we do call on that name bc after all it is HIS name


The name of the Son is the same as the name of the Father. God gave it to Moses from the burning bush. "I AM THAT I AM" is God's name throughout the generations. Three persons, One God, One name. A name is NOT what you seem to think it is. The name is the identity, the substance, who God is. It is not a string of letters or syllables. If it really were the case that the letters and their pronunciation were the important part, then UPCI would be calling on the wrong name as "jesus" is the English version of a Latin version of a Greek approximation of a Hebrew nickname. Jesus Christ would have been known as Yeshua or Yehoshua to Hebrew speakers, and even those English versions aren't terribly accurate to the original Hebrew.

UPCI calls Jesus the "son of God" but do not believe that He is "eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father." UPCI does not believe He is the Biblical definition of the Son of God.

UPCI denies that God died on the cross for our sins, they believe that only the flesh body died.

quote:

quote:

No, you didn't misunderstand your friend. The UPCI really believes that "in jesus name"is a magic incantation that guarantees salvation when accompanied by babbling in an unknown language
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
.....oh brother we dont deny the I am sheesh again your so wrong


The "name above all names" is His identity as God. The three persons of the Godhead share in one name.

quote:

quote:

when accompanied by babbling in an unknown language
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Thank you Jesus for your name the name above all names That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; OH HOW I LOVE THAT NAME ................ !


Neither of the verses you quoted say that tongues are required for salvation. Tell me, if you really believe that they do say that, have you cast out a demon yet to secure your salvation? How are you doing when it comes to earning your salvation with the works required by the UPCI?



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