RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostalism.
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 3/24/2008 5:46:30 PM
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figmentPez
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Okay, you cited these passages (with no context as to what you thought they said, as if other Christians just ignore those verses, or something)
John 1:1-12
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
To that I add verses 13-14
13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
As well, I add these verses from Revelation:
Revelation 19:13, 16
13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
...
16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."
Revelation 17:14
14"These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."
Revelation 5:12-14
12saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." 13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." 14And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen " And the elders fell down and worshiped.
We can see from these passages that the Word of God, the Word that was made flesh, is the "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." This King of Kings and Lord of Lords is the Lamb of God. This Lamb of God is presented before "Him who sits on the throne", and both are worshipped. The Lamb of God is the Word, and is both with God and is God, and has been since the beginning.
In fact, this gets back to my question.
Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
Revelation chapters 4 and 5 are a parallel of Daniel 7:13-14. The Son of Man presented before the Ancient of Days is the same as the Lamb presented before Him who sits upon the throne. How is it that God is presented before God, if you believe that God is only one person?
Lets see the next verse you quoted was:
Mathew 16:18-19
18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."
This one goes right back to my question as well.
Matthew 16:13
Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"
The reason that Jesus said those things to Peter is that Peter had the answer to this question revealed to Him from the Father. Why did Peter have such an easy time answering this question, while you refuse to even attempt it?
Please, answer my question: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
The last verse you quoted is:
Acts 2:38
38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
And, what is the name of Jesus Christ? The name of Jesus Christ is the name of God, because Jesus Christ is God. God gave His name to Moses back in Exodus 3.
Exodus 3:13-15
13Then Moses said to God, "Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?"
14God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
15God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you ' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations."
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one name. The Father is LORD, the Son is LORD, the Holy Spirit is LORD. Baptism in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit is baptism in one name, the name above all names, the name of the LORD, God's name forever.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 3/24/2008 7:03:19 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
I will reword the Scripture's to represent the oneness doctrine.
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, (something in aramaic) that is to say, my self, my self, why hast i forsaken me?
Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, me: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mark 6:46 And when he had sent them away, he departed into a mountain to talk to Himself.
John 10:30 I and my self are one.
John 14:8-9 And Philip said to Him, Lord, show us yourself, and it is enough for us.
:9 Jesus said to him, Am I so long a time with you, and you have not known Me, Philip? The one seeing Me has seen Me! And how do you say, Show us You?
I love this! I don't see how they can honestly ignore SO MUCH Scripture and context that denies the Oneness teaching and utterly destroys its logic (or better said, lack thereof).
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 3/26/2008 3:05:06 AM
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jconley
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I was wondering if The Holy GHost over shadowed Mary and she had Jesus who would be the Father ? The Holy Ghost ? And would that make 2 Fathers ?  Are would the Father be the Father?
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 3/29/2008 10:47:04 PM
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yosemite371
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"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." (Genesis 1:26).
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." (Genesis 1:27).
"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil." (Genesis 3:22).
"Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" (Isaiah 6:.
Those who claim that the plural personal pronouns refer to a plurality of persons in the Godhead have not read Genesis 1:27 very carefully for this verse makes it all very clear.
"Elohim created man in HIS image, the image of Elohim created HE him." The singular personal pronouns, "His" and "He" states very clearly that creation was the work of ONE DIVINE PERSON. Also verses 3 and 10 of the first chapter of John's gospel makes this clear. "The world was made by Him" (Jesus).
If God is a plurality of persons, and if man was created in the image of God, why is not man a plurality of persons? Man is threefold; body, soul, and spirit, but only one person. The meaning of "us" and "our" must have the same explanation as in Genesis 3:22 and Isaiah 6:8. In these verses the personal pronouns clearly refer to God and the cherubim, and to God and the seraphim. In each case the plural pronouns referred to God and the angels. He did not counsel with the angels in the sense of seeking instruction (Isaiah 40:12-14). However, He did take them into His confidence. Creation was not done in secret. earthless it doesnt seem to be lacking here. thnx yo
< Message edited by yosemite371 -- 3/31/2008 2:46:18 PM >
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peace love and charity be with u all thnx yosemite371
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 3/31/2008 3:14:48 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yosemite371
figmentpez u misquoted scripture
my bible has that the world was made by him.
therefore i did not read all of ur post.
this tells me that u twist scripture to get out of it what u want.
Figpez did not misquote or twist anything. quote:
KJV please. KJV original 1611:
Joh 1:10 Hee was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
ASV: Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world knew him not.
NASB:Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
HNV/WEB: Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world didn’t recognize him.
ESV: Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.
BTW, this is the Wrong thread to insist on KJVO.
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 3/31/2008 7:52:09 PM
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yosemite371
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yes try early roman catholic church, fox book of martyers. the history of trinity is abundant and filled with such knowledge. early or mid evil times of kings and queens where trinity started. fox's book is a direct history taken directly out of files of such documented history. as a prober im suprised that u havent studied what u yourself beleives. maybe if the career destroys the person then maybe the person needs to destroy the career. just an idea. thnx yo just an added note god is the pilot not a co-pilot he works with no one so u have to change yourself or let him. and martyrdom pretty much started with nero in roman empire. then led into persacutions of christians by trinatarians. although they were called reformers and prodestants at that time.
< Message edited by yosemite371 -- 3/31/2008 8:40:57 PM >
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peace love and charity be with u all thnx yosemite371
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 3/31/2008 8:58:34 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yosemite371
yes try early roman catholic church, fox book of martyers. the history of trinity is abundant and filled with such knowledge. early or mid evil times of kings and queens where trinity started.
That's like saying all murderers that claimed to be Christian were indeed such.
quote:
ORIGINAL: yosemite371
fox's book is a direct history taken directly out of files of such documented history. as a prober im suprised that u havent studied what u yourself beleives.
I am very familiar with Foxe's Book, thanks.
quote:
ORIGINAL: yosemite371
maybe if the career destroys the person then maybe the person needs to destroy the career.
I guess no Christians should be cops, lawyers, judges, teachers, firemen, paramedics, etc..
quote:
ORIGINAL: yosemite371
just an added note god is the pilot not a co-pilot he works with no one so u have to change yourself or let him. and martyrdom pretty much started with nero in roman empire. then led into persacutions of christians by trinatarians. although they were called reformers and prodestants at that time.
It's absurd to attribute horrific crimes which go against the very premise of the Bible simply because they were done under a "Christian" banner.
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 3/31/2008 9:28:03 PM
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yosemite371
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yes and brings me back to point and is why i am oneness. if a job goes against my beleif i dont do it. if a banner is all i got im on wrong side and is why im oneness. all kinds of crimes have been commited by so-called christians or churchs. im sure hitler thought he had a higher calling when he slew all those jews, as well did the roman catholic church when they slew all those christians. im not only talking about foxes book but actual written history. the represion of written bible so that trinatarianism could thrive. the keeping of the people to where they couldnt read anything,therefore they couldnt read bible. and today it sadly is our own fault as individuals by not reading bible and knowing history. the wool is slowly covering our eyes. we must try to fight desperatly to stay in the light. that is why i keep to the old standard KJV and search scriptures so vigourusly. as for myself i am founded in my faith and am just to the cause. i shall persaveer. thnx yo
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peace love and charity be with u all thnx yosemite371
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 3/31/2008 9:49:41 PM
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yosemite371
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there are a lot of people that claim to be christian that arent. just as there are some to claim oneness that arent.(td jakes for instance).not all are in the light. i beleive that there are no murders called christian just murders calling themselves chritians. thnx yo
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peace love and charity be with u all thnx yosemite371
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 4/1/2008 6:34:49 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
lets get back to original translation Yosimite: I was recently in a oneness congregation for the wake after my sister's funeral.
Above the bima they had the Sh'ma in very large letters:
Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.
Or - if you really want the original: ׁ שׁמע ישׂראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד׃
Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Elohenu, Adonai echad.
Let me break it down for you. Hear O Israel; i.e. Listen up. Then it Lists God by name 3 times (Adonai Elohenu Adonai) and finishes with the word Echad. This is supposed to be the universal Jewish proclaimation of God's eternal oneness, prayed in synagogues and by individuals 3x a day every day for your entire lifetime.
HOWEVER - what they missed in posting that was one word - the one they relied on - to prove God is One - does not mean an absolute singularity. consider its usage here:
Gen 2:24 Therefore,shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one (echad) flesh.
Echad, as used in the Pentetuch, is a composite unity, not an absloute singularity. So the Sh'ma, which is supposed to deny the Trinity, actually supports it: God named 3 times in a composite unity.
< Message edited by DaveW -- 4/1/2008 6:40:58 AM >
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 4/1/2008 8:16:32 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yosemite371
there are a lot of people that claim to be christian that arent. just as there are some to claim oneness that arent.(td jakes for instance).not all are in the light. i beleive that there are no murders called christian just murders calling themselves chritians. thnx yo
Are you saying that a person that murdered someone cannot be born-again/saved?
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 4/1/2008 10:45:16 AM
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yosemite371
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earthless listen close, a murderer calls his self christian. if u are a unrepentent murderer are u a christian. if u are repentent are u a murderer. god said he put sins as far as east is from west and casts in sea. as far as the other guy was talking about hear o isreal. i also beleive in father son and holyghost. i just beleive that all are one. just as you are maybe a dad,son,nephew,employee,husband you are still one person. just because u have multiple titles doesnt mean u have multiple bodies. i know sometimes its confusing but the overall bible to me insists on one supream being. not three. ever read where it says HE is the alpha and omega. this was done in a singular since. this isnt only one, there are many times in bible it claims a singular god. if u go all thru bible trying to change does that make multiple true? does it make singular true? thnx yo
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peace love and charity be with u all thnx yosemite371
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 4/1/2008 10:56:16 AM
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yosemite371
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dave w the verse on hear o isreal makes even more since to me now. he gave three title but also said one god. that is in line with my last post. and earthless i pondered on what u said last and salvation and i know u know how i beleive salvation is up to the bearer of it. i beleive that when u repent u have to keep the walk and not stumble until u reach pearly gate then and only then are u saved. thnx yo
< Message edited by yosemite371 -- 4/1/2008 11:13:21 AM >
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peace love and charity be with u all thnx yosemite371
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 4/1/2008 12:04:44 PM
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1love1God1way
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If it is only three titles, and not three persons, who was Jesus praying to all those times? And why did he say the comforter would come?
Wouldn't it have just been easier to say "Hi me. I'm here. Yay."
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 4/1/2008 1:09:59 PM
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1love1God1way
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No, I'm not making fun of Scripture, I'm using satire to make a point.
I don't know what you mean that the answer lies somewhere between the spirit and the flesh. Jesus' spirit and flesh were in perfect unision.
Are you suggesting he had to pray in the flesh to hear himself in the spirit?
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 4/1/2008 1:19:03 PM
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yosemite371
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no and i said i could only awkwardly explain so read link in my last edited post it can clear it up for you. thnx yo ok fellers i gotta go. the road call untill next time. ben heres the link that can answer your question a lot better than i can. www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies then look under theology proper then go to cristology. hope this helps. sorry bout asking for KJV only. all oneness people that i know only use this as well as i. alot of other translations lose meaning to me. i dont trust them. thnx yo
< Message edited by yosemite371 -- 4/1/2008 9:31:01 PM >
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peace love and charity be with u all thnx yosemite371
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 4/1/2008 9:06:05 PM
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Ps103
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Some things we may not do on the board:
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1.a. This includes not harrassing other users by saying they are "twisting Scripture" by using another version.
2. We may not compare other posters in the thread to long-dead murderers because they do not agree with what we post.
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 4/1/2008 9:32:12 PM
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URForgiven
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Christianity = Jesus is God.
The Oneness movement = God is Jesus.
Big difference.
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 4/1/2008 9:36:27 PM
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yosemite371
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i agree to a point but it may be my ignorance if god IS jesus then couldnt it be also be said that jesus is god. thnx yo
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peace love and charity be with u all thnx yosemite371
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 4/1/2008 9:50:14 PM
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URForgiven
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The simple answer Yosemite371 is no. To say God is Jesus limits God to less than His whole.
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 4/1/2008 10:10:32 PM
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yosemite371
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hows that ? iaint saying it aint i just want to learn. im used to thinking of jesus as fully man and fully god so i dont understand concept of him loosing wholeness whichever way u say it. oh wait u must be trinatarian. im a little slow sometimes sorry. thnx yo
< Message edited by yosemite371 -- 4/1/2008 10:25:27 PM >
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peace love and charity be with u all thnx yosemite371
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 4/1/2008 11:02:16 PM
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abu_khomar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
lets get back to original translation Yosimite: I was recently in a oneness congregation for the wake after my sister's funeral.
Above the bima they had the Sh'ma in very large letters:
Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.
Or - if you really want the original: ׁ שׁמע ישׂראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד׃
Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Elohenu, Adonai echad.
Let me break it down for you. Hear O Israel; i.e. Listen up. Then it Lists God by name 3 times (Adonai Elohenu Adonai) and finishes with the word Echad. This is supposed to be the universal Jewish proclaimation of God's eternal oneness, prayed in synagogues and by individuals 3x a day every day for your entire lifetime.
HOWEVER - what they missed in posting that was one word - the one they relied on - to prove God is One - does not mean an absolute singularity. consider its usage here:
Gen 2:24 Therefore,shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one (echad) flesh.
Echad, as used in the Pentetuch, is a composite unity, not an absloute singularity. So the Sh'ma, which is supposed to deny the Trinity, actually supports it: God named 3 times in a composite unity.
Hello Dave,
Also do not forget about the number of times that echad is also used to show one in a numerical value, and not just one in unity. Such scriptural references are:
A list of Canaanite kings each designated by the word echad (Joshua 12:9-24)
The prophet Micaiah (I Kings 22:8)
Abraham (Ezekiel 33:24)
A list of gates each designated by echad (Ezekiel 48:31-34)
The angel Michael (Daniel 10:13)
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 4/2/2008 1:37:13 PM
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DaveW
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Those passages were written in some cases hundreds of years after the Pentetuch. I am looking at how MOSES use the word.
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Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
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RE: Let's get a discussion going on Oneness Pentecostal... - 4/2/2008 1:41:35 PM
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abu_khomar
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My Apologies Dave, I did not realize you were referring solely to its usage by Moses. And I do agree that it can be used to show a oneness in unity, as well as an absolute singularity, but I feel to say that it means absolutely one or the other when there is no discernible context is a little questionable.
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