|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 6/6/2007 2:10:09 PM
|
|
|
AngelMommy
Posts: 57
Joined: 6/5/2007
From: Springfield, MO
Status: offline
|
I have read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" and "Boy meets Girl" IKDG is meant mostly for the younger crowd who are too young to be dating (10-18) I "dated" my now husband when we were 9 and 10, right before I left the country with my family to be missionaries in Germany. When I came back 4 years later and found out he had "cheated" on me (aka "dated" other girls while I was gone) my heart was broken and I refused to have any thing to do with him for the next 7 years. So I can see where IKDG would benefit someone in that age group but I have also seen the pitfalls of it's philosophy when used in the older crowd, my sis for example when she was 19, living on her own (parents an ocean away in Germany) didn't date 3 guys (not at the same time), they were "just friends" but they did everything that normal dating couples did (aside from kissing ect) in one case she even went and spent Christmas with his family. Side note: she did not read IKDG but its principles were taught at our church. I also have seen were there was nothing wrong with the potential spouse but because mom and dad said "I don't think this person is right for you" a potential marriage was broken off. Were they right or wrong, I don't know but I think the decision should be the couples, not Mom or Dad or Pastor for that matter. And in my opinion if you can't stand up to your parents when they're nit picking at your future mate then you didn't really love them that much in the first place.
I was more impressed with "When God writes your love Story" by the Lundys. Another good book for your daughter would be "And the Bride wore White". I wish I would have read that one much earlier it would have saved me a lot of heartache.
Lydia
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 6/6/2007 4:55:58 PM
|
|
|
Geocacher301
Posts: 71
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JaredMeister
Because he was only 21 years old when he wrote the book. He simply did not have the "battle-field" experience to give full-orbed picture of the situation. Sure, he had some dating experience, but clearly not enough.
Look for a seriously "Revised Edition" of IKDG someday, if it's not out already.
Jared
He does have a revised IKDG Book out alreay. I found no mention of the pitfalls in this book either. He also has another "testimonial" type book out called "Boy Meets Girl." Though he did in that book express that there was some liberty with this approach, he still didn't comment on the pitfalls of his group approach.
Additionally, he is not a lone ranger. The group that he is a part of has around 30 years experience with promoting the group approach. You would think that someone else in his group would have suggested commenting on the pitfalls or he would have sought out their advice.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 6/6/2007 7:49:01 PM
|
|
|
Elena1030
Posts: 904
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: Music City, USA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
You don't have to take a girl to the movies or out to dinner or gaze into her pretty eyes or kiss her to discern whether she's worthy. IMO, those are the least best ways for such discernment, anyway. Watching someone interact with family, church members, and seeing how they work for the Lord is a much better indicator of their character and potential as a spouse.
True.
But I think what you're talking about is more about boundaries and expectations than it is about group dating vs. dating one-on-one.
You and Josiah were in a situation that offered you opportunities to observe each other in group settings. (I LOVE y'all's love story, by the way!  ) Not everyone has that advantage.
If two people cross paths but don't normally see each other on a regular basis, then they're going to have to be more intentional about spending time together.
I really think the problem is not so much not the structures and situations of dating or courting. It's more about our thoughts and feelings.
In my time of dating (and of drought too!), I've learned that the two people who are dating each other have to train their minds to think "I'm taking this seriously but I'm not jumping in prematurely" and to reign in both their fears and their eagerness.
If you find it difficult to go to the movies with your sweetie because you have built up in your mind that going to the movies is about romantic moments like holding hands, caressing, sighing over being with him and if going on such a date is going to fuel your mind with romantic fantasies and make it more difficult to focus on him as a whole person and not just as a cute body to cuddle with, then make your outings (which is what dates are) different ones.
You can "design" a dating/courting life that helps you honor God, honor the other person, and protect yourself (but not to the point of locking your heart away where it cannot be touched!). It's a delicate balance of not intwining your lives together before it's time to do so... but also doing things that you regularly do in life, not just doing all those romantic things that you don't do in your normal life as a single.
I guess the key is to "get a life," so your dating life then is a component of the great life you already have, not the more exciting parallel universe that takes you out of your humdrum life. (And that's MY danger----that dating becomes yet another "escape" from any monotony in my life... which puts undue pressure on the guy, on myself, on the relationship... AND infuses lots of temptation.)
_____________________________
"We're not odd, we're just over-expressive."—Helen in Howard's End
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 6/7/2007 4:11:49 PM
|
|
|
Geocacher301
Posts: 71
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: AngelMommy
I also have seen were there was nothing wrong with the potential spouse but because mom and dad said "I don't think this person is right for you" a potential marriage was broken off. Were they right or wrong, I don't know but I think the decision should be the couples, not Mom or Dad or Pastor for that matter. And in my opinion if you can't stand up to your parents when they're nit picking at your future mate then you didn't really love them that much in the first place.
Though I agree that the final decision on whether you marry or not should be with the couple I certainly feel that listening to the advice of others is important. As the old adage goes "love can be blind."
Many times when one is dating someone and has the romantic attraction they can't see some things that others can see. I would also say that it is important to honor your parents even as you get older. Thus not listening to their advice would not be honoring them. Depending on the parents there can be a lot of latitude there also.
Not being open to what your parents and friends have to say about a match being bad could lead to a bad marriage where later you wonder why you never saw this fault. In the end you have to use your own judgment.
I have seen at least one case when the pastor didn't think the couple were a good match would pick at their relationship. I never thought that that was right.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 6/8/2007 11:33:45 AM
|
|
|
AngelMommy
Posts: 57
Joined: 6/5/2007
From: Springfield, MO
Status: offline
|
Geocacher,
if you notice I did say nit-picking. One of the situations I'm thinking of his mother "didn't like her attitude" he said he still loved her but because his mom didn't care for her he would no longer be in a relationship with her. He was basically give the choice her or your family, and I think that is just manipulative. Now she's dating his best friend and he (former boy) is mad at him (best friend) I mean what did he expect she was never going to marry and just pine away for him because he didn't have the guts to tell mom that he's a big boy she needs to accept the woman he loves. He's the oldest child by the way and mom's not ready to let her little boy (25) go. I don't always get along with my mil either but we make it work. Some times when Mom and Dad have too much control in their son or daughter's life they need to stand up to them or they will continue controlling their marriage and that does not line up with the Scripture's command to leave and cleave.
Basically I agree that we should listen to their (our parents) advice, but as adults we need to realize that it is just that advice and not a command that we MUST obey. That was all I was trying to say. Who knows this situation that I'm thinking of might end up working for the best. I just get frustrated with people who believe that if mom and dad say something you should do exactly what they say no mater how old you are.
Lydia
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 6/9/2007 9:05:37 PM
|
|
|
TheSkylark
Posts: 79
Joined: 6/9/2007
Status: offline
|
I can't count how many times I've read IKDG. I was in love with that book when I was 14-18. I suppose it probably helped keep me out of a string of short-term, fickle relationships... but I'm not the sort that seeks those out, anyway.
Now I'm way more relaxed about it. At age 17, I was all about the rules and setting my standards too high. And I was pretty vocal about them. Nope, I wouldn't dance or drink, I wouldn't date anyone without my parents' full knowledge and consent, and on it went. I thought a list of rules and expectations would save me the "Seven Habits of Highly Defective Dating," as Harris calls it. But they don't. I spent way more time concerning myself with how things ought to be if I had a significant other and too little time improving myself. Not for the benefit of a man, of course, but because I should always be improving and gaining in wisdom and goodness.
Do I want my family to be involved if I have a boyfriend/suitor/whatever? Sure. Listening to good counsel is wise. I've seen the heartache that comes when a family member refuses to listen to any authority figures and galavants off with the most immature, irresponsible person out there. But I'm not going to be calling my parents daily and filling them in on every detail of going to the park to throw a frisbee around with the boyfriend or talking over coffee. They're not my babysitters. If by 24, I can't handle myself in routine situations, something's wrong.
_____________________________
"Jesus loves you. Then again, he loves everybody." ~ T-shirt on LarkNews.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 6/14/2007 1:11:34 PM
|
|
|
Geocacher301
Posts: 71
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheSkylark
I can't count how many times I've read IKDG. I was in love with that book when I was 14-18. I suppose it probably helped keep me out of a string of short-term, fickle relationships... but I'm not the sort that seeks those out, anyway.
Now I'm way more relaxed about it. At age 17, I was all about the rules and setting my standards too high. And I was pretty vocal about them. Nope, I wouldn't dance or drink, I wouldn't date anyone without my parents' full knowledge and consent, and on it went. I thought a list of rules and expectations would save me the "Seven Habits of Highly Defective Dating," as Harris calls it. But they don't. I spent way more time concerning myself with how things ought to be if I had a significant other and too little time improving myself. Not for the benefit of a man, of course, but because I should always be improving and gaining in wisdom and goodness.
When I read your post one thought that occurs to me here is that this group approach is typically presented as something that is “black and white” with no shades of Grey. By this I mean that there is really no middle ground or “freedom” and the same rules should apply to all ages. Another way to say this is that it is presented in a legalistic fashion vs. a guideline.
A lot of things in Christianity are black and white with no middle ground. Since this is the case, people who deal with a lot of black and white issues (such as ministers) have a harder time dealing with and presenting something that can have shades of grey. The author of the book seemed to present the group approach as a black and white issue with no middle ground. He did in his subsequent book (Boy Meets Girl) indicate that there could be some freedom depending on age/maturity and situation (too bad that wasn’t in his first book or revised first book).
Hindsight and common sense both tell you that the group approach is a good guideline for teenagers and that as someone gets older different guidelines should apply. Perhaps as one moves into their twenties, it is fine to do things one on one with the opposite sex while still doing some things (or earlier stages of a relationship) in a group setting. As I posted before, a lot of pastors that promote the group approach have gotten married at a young age. Thus they don’t have any first hand experience being an older single and hence they gravitate toward rules that are more appropriate for younger people.
Another point to remember is that the group approach works better for people that are more gregarious. It also depends on having people that are “connectors” that can set up group activities. “Connectors” are the people that when they propose an activity have success in getting a lot of participants. If someone isn’t that gregarious and/or there aren’t “connectors” setting up activities then there typically is a lot of lonely people.
Normally when a new approach is introduced it is expected that mistakes happen; this should be expected with the group approach. What one would expect is that a group learns from its mistakes. The group that the author is a part of had over 20 years experience with this concept when he wrote the book. You would have thought that more of the “lessons learned” would have been shared.
I am sure that the group approach has worked well for some people including those who married into their 20’s and 30’s. For the people it doesn’t work for, I am sure they leave and the pastors rarely hear their experience. This is at least one of the reason why some pastors are misinformed on how well this approach works.
Just a few more of my thoughts.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 6/14/2007 4:02:50 PM
|
|
|
kittyb
Posts: 175
Joined: 2/10/2006
Status: offline
|
Hi Guys,
Just for the record... I don't believe in group dating for anyone over the age of 21. Period!
Kitty
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 9/12/2007 9:43:15 PM
|
|
|
Fredriqua
Posts: 20
Joined: 9/12/2007
Status: offline
|
I found the link to this conversation posted on another website, and although I know it's an old thread, I have to weigh in.
First of all, I have to say that I admire Josh Harris for his thoughtful and Scriptural stance on purity. This is sadly missing from too much of Evangelical Christianity. In fact, I almost totally agree with most of what Harris says about the harm of seeking out romantic relationships long before one is ready for marriage. I also totally agree with his ideas (which are basically the Bible's standards) on sexual purity before marriage.
That being said, though...
I read IKDG back when it first came out in the late 90s. I was in my late 20s and still single at the time, and I have to say, I despised the book. It infused the already-gun-shy guys in my church singles' group with even MORE fear and heaviness about spending any one-on-one time with a girl.
The "dating" scene, for what little it had been before the book, basically ceased after those courtship ideas permeated our group. If a couple had ANY romantic interest in each other, it was almost something shameful. The young men retreated behind just more skateboarding and hackey-sack, while us girls had Bible studies amongst ourselves. It was not good.
That book just gave those guys more of an excuse to leave us alone. And made the girls have unrealistic, pie-in-the-sky notions of someday when the perfect guy would approach her father and ask to "court" her.
The movement teaches that showing ANY romantic interest in a girl before you ask her father for permission to "court" her is inappropriate. In fact, a recent handout from our current church suggests treating even a gal you might eventually court as a "sister" so that she'll have no idea of your intentions until her father tells her of your request.
What normal Christian guy, one who is decent enough on all fronts to get a date in the "regular" way, would ever subject himself to all that serious heaviness of approaching the dad to be able to spend some one-on-one time with a girl?
I was incredibly blessed to meet my husband, date (in the typical way) and marry him despite all that courtship nonsense. And yes, we managed (through God's grace) to keep our relationship pure until marriage.
That's the part that boggles my mind. The die-hard courtship advocates have turned any romance-tinged interaction between a guy and gal into something dirty and evil and fraught with sin, when I can speak from experience and say that it DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THAT WAY, if you are committed to purity and work out strategies to avoid tempting situations.
The effects of that book were far-reaching back then. Now, 10 years later, married and with two young daughters, I'm facing the fall-out of this "courtship" movement in a whole different way.
About 6 months ago, we became involved in a church that buys into the "courtship" thing 100%. And what I see is, the courtship system really serves to benefit guys who would never get a gal any other way. At my church, there are tons of lovely single gals, all living at home, waiting for Mr. Right. They've been indoctrinated into the courtship mindset since childhood, because their parents were influenced by the book years ago.
Anyway, a few of the cutest of these girls have finally "entered into courtships" (one of them was even mentioned from the pulpit...talk about pressure!), but the guys who are courting them are...well, I don't know how to put this kindly...let's just say that if they do wind up getting married, they will have DEFINITELY "married up"!
We love so much about this church, but the heavy-handed, artificial, manufactured way that they handle romance and marriage is starting to seem like some sort of secondary, unspoken doctrine. I don't know what to do about it. I can look ahead another 10 or 15 years and envision my kids being viewed as "loose" if we don't buy into the courtship system.
But I CAN'T buy into it. I think it was a sweet, though naive and misguided, reaction to our immoral, sick secular society. It's an understandable reaction. But now I see an entire church who has trained an entire generation to get married in this way, and I don't think it works that well. Finding a spouse should NOT be a "one size fits all" process. The Bible never made it that way, and we shouldn't either.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 9/12/2007 11:03:05 PM
|
|
|
derek_from_canada
Posts: 455
Joined: 7/28/2007
Status: offline
|
well said and written Fredriqua,
I agree that IKDG was for younger people and I think Boy Meets Girl was much better (and more real)
The great irony is Josh Harris himself didn't quite follow the "ideal" either. And I see courtship vs dating as an exercise in semantics. (though perhaps useful to re-define it) In my mind he was 'dating' his wife to be as soon as he having one on one conversation with her. *shrug*
There are some good ideas in the books, but it's not gospel, not should it be treated as such.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 9/22/2007 11:56:07 AM
|
|
|
Geocacher301
Posts: 71
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Fredriqua
I read IKDG back when it first came out in the late 90s. I was in my late 20s and still single at the time, and I have to say, I despised the book. It infused the already-gun-shy guys in my church singles' group with even MORE fear and heaviness about spending any one-on-one time with a girl.
The "dating" scene, for what little it had been before the book, basically ceased after those courtship ideas permeated our group. If a couple had ANY romantic interest in each other, it was almost something shameful. The young men retreated behind just more skateboarding and hackey-sack, while us girls had Bible studies amongst ourselves. It was not good.
That book just gave those guys more of an excuse to leave us alone. And made the girls have unrealistic, pie-in-the-sky notions of someday when the perfect guy would approach her father and ask to "court" her.
The movement teaches that showing ANY romantic interest in a girl before you ask her father for permission to "court" her is inappropriate. In fact, a recent handout from our current church suggests treating even a gal you might eventually court as a "sister" so that she'll have no idea of your intentions until her father tells her of your request.
I was incredibly blessed to meet my husband, date (in the typical way) and marry him despite all that courtship nonsense. And yes, we managed (through God's grace) to keep our relationship pure until marriage.
That's the part that boggles my mind. The die-hard courtship advocates have turned any romance-tinged interaction between a guy and gal into something dirty and evil and fraught with sin, when I can speak from experience and say that it DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THAT WAY, if you are committed to purity and work out strategies to avoid tempting situations.
The effects of that book were far-reaching back then. Now, 10 years later, married and with two young daughters, I'm facing the fall-out of this "courtship" movement in a whole different way.
But I CAN'T buy into it. I think it was a sweet, though naive and misguided, reaction to our immoral, sick secular society. It's an understandable reaction. But now I see an entire church who has trained an entire generation to get married in this way, and I don't think it works that well. Finding a spouse should NOT be a "one size fits all" process. The Bible never made it that way, and we shouldn't either.
quote:
read IKDG back when it first came out in the late 90s. I was in my late 20s and still single at the time, and I have to say, I despised the book. It infused the already-gun-shy guys in my church singles' group with even MORE fear and heaviness about spending any one-on-one time with a girl.
The "dating" scene, for what little it had been before the book, basically ceased after those courtship ideas permeated our group. If a couple had ANY romantic interest in each other, it was almost something shameful. The young men retreated behind just more skateboarding and hackey-sack, while us girls had Bible studies amongst ourselves. It was not good.
That book just gave those guys more of an excuse to leave us alone. And made the girls have unrealistic, pie-in-the-sky notions of someday when the perfect guy would approach her father and ask to "court" her.
The movement teaches that showing ANY romantic interest in a girl before you ask her father for permission to "court" her is inappropriate. In fact, a recent handout from our current church suggests treating even a gal you might eventually court as a "sister" so that she'll have no idea of your intentions until her father tells her of your request.
What normal Christian guy, one who is decent enough on all fronts to get a date in the "regular" way, would ever subject himself to all that serious heaviness of approaching the dad to be able to spend some one-on-one time with a girl?
I was incredibly blessed to meet my husband, date (in the typical way) and marry him despite all that courtship nonsense. And yes, we managed (through God's grace) to keep our relationship pure until marriage.
That's the part that boggles my mind. The die-hard courtship advocates have turned any romance-tinged interaction between a guy and gal into something dirty and evil and fraught with sin, when I can speak from experience and say that it DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THAT WAY, if you are committed to purity and work out strategies to avoid tempting situations.
The effects of that book were far-reaching back then. Now, 10 years later, married and with two young daughters, I'm facing the fall-out of this "courtship" movement in a whole different way.
About 6 months ago, we became involved in a church that buys into the "courtship" thing 100%. And what I see is, the courtship system really serves to benefit guys who would never get a gal any other way. At my church, there are tons of lovely single gals, all living at home, waiting for Mr. Right. They've been indoctrinated into the courtship mindset since childhood, because their parents were influenced by the book years ago.
We love so much about this church, but the heavy-handed, artificial, manufactured way that they handle romance and marriage is starting to seem like some sort of secondary, unspoken doctrine. I don't know what to do about it. I can look ahead another 10 or 15 years and envision my kids being viewed as "loose" if we don't buy into the courtship system.
But I CAN'T buy into it. I think it was a sweet, though naive and misguided, reaction to our immoral, sick secular society. It's an understandable reaction. But now I see an entire church who has trained an entire generation to get married in this way, and I don't think it works that well. Finding a spouse should NOT be a "one size fits all" process. The Bible never made it that way, and we shouldn't either.
[Send Private Message]
Fredriqua
Thanks for being another person who has experienced the problems with the "group apprach" and who is willing to share the the problems with this that you have encountered. You share a lot of good points about this including how it makes the single men "gun shy" about approaching a single sister. It also can make the single women "stand offish."
It still baffles me that a person could write a book like he did and not acknowledged the problems or warn someone about them. I don't think he is lying, I just think that he wants to hear and wants to believe what he wants about this. It is sad but true. I would also think that since his book has been under attack that he is less likely to be open to any type of criticism since he probably has a shield up. I sent some of these posts to his email address and it is apparent that they never got post his administrative assistant.
It is sad though that they probably have never owned up to the damage they have done with a policy like this.
You certainly have a good point that promoters of this seem to make this unassailable doctrine vs. a suggestion or guidelines.
I did hear through someone that attends Joshua's church that they did recently do some talks and outline things like it is OK for a single brother to invite a single sister out for coffee (or even a single sister invite a brother out for coffee).
Though making these clarifications are a good step, one would should have to ask themselves why they need to do this? They have been pushing this policy for almost 30 years. Why has it taken so long for them to do this. One would think that having to do this would make them want to some soul searching. There having to do this does confirm my opinion that this people get so legalistic on this so soon.
|
|
|
|
RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 9/25/2007 11:34:10 AM
|
|
|
Geocacher301
Posts: 71
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline
|
I found this on the discussion page of Wikipedia for Joshua Harris's book. I thought people might find this interesting.
Total disgrace to our generation
I know some people will criticize my words as being "un-Christlike," or what have you, but this needs to be said. This man ruined a generation of Christians. His attrocity "I kissed dating goodbye" is required reading at some private Christian schools, endorsed by many Christian "celebrities," and has built up so many fears and insecurities in young people with regards to dating and the opposite sex it makes me wonder if anyone is capable of thinking for themselves these days. If you have a history of promiscuity or are weak in the flesh, yet desire a relationship with Christ, maybe Harris' teachings are right for you, but the fact is for many of us, there is nothing wrong with dating and getting comfortable around the opposite sex as we come of age. Especially not so that this book should be required reading at Christian schools. All of the awkwardness and introversion that plagues this generation needs to stop.
What amazes me is that in "I kissed dating goodbye," Harris describes his promiscuous lifestyle before accepting Christ. Is this someone we want telling us how it should be done? I can understand why an alcoholic would abstain completely from drinking alcoholic beverages, but does that mean I, a person with no history of alcohol abuse, shouldn't have a toast on New Year's Eve? Absolutely not. So why should anyone who hasn't had a problem with lust and promiscuity listen to this guy? Why should you limit a beautiful thing in your life, namely getting to know and feel comfortable around the opposite sex in your teens and twenties, because this guy blew it for himself? Look at his picture on the main page, for Heaven's sake. He is probably nearing his 30's, and he still dresses like some sort of hipster. What kind of grip on reality does this guy have?
We are living in the midst of a pornography emidemic brought on by the internet, and a media that tells our young people in movies, TV shows, and music that they are "missing out" if they don't sleep around. When people think of Christians, they think of Ned Flanders from the Simpsons or the Church Lady on SNL. How much longer is the church going sleep through this? How are we going to attract young people by telling them they shouldn't even date, especially when this philosophy isn't backed by scripture.
Young people, if you read this, please listen to me. It is OK to date and get to know the opposite sex. You don't want to be another Harris casualty, still scared and awkward of the opposite sex in your mid 20's. It is OK to kiss your boyfriend or girlfriend. All we, as Christians, believe is that marriage is sacred, and that you should not have sex before you are Married. (And that means ALL forms of sex. In other words, you need to respect each other and keep your clothes ON.) What you see on "Friends" and "Seinfeld," and in the videos on MTV is a lie. People who sleep around, even in the midst of "serious relationships," more often than not end up feeling empty and miserable inside. Don't you want someone you can spend and enjoy your life with, who will be there for you through thick and thin? Don't you want to wait and share those moments with them? It starts with becoming comfortable with the opposite sex, a.k.a, dating.
As a married Christian, I am glad I waited for my wife. And if you have slept around and desire a relationship with Christ, He still loves you and accepts you for who you are, but please help His cause by discouraging promiscuity. With all due respect, leave the teaching young people about dating and relationships to those of us who have done it right. Telling them they should obstain from it entirely is hurting our cause, and in my opinion, the inner spirits of young people.
If you don't believe me, there have been a few critiques of Harris' book written, and I encourage you to read them, especially if you have read, or someone forced you to read, "I Kissed Dating Goodbye."
I have said my peace. If you read this, thank you for your attention, and I hope I inspired you in some way. I know many people who, inspired by Harris, obstained from dating, and they are still awkward and lanky aroung the opposite sex into their mid 20's. They think marriage is just going to magically happen for them when it is "God's will." Please don't be one of them. Unless you are completely avoiding alcohol because you used to be a drunk, so to speak, I say... Men, get to know your women. Learn what they want from you, and how to fulfill them spiratually. Women, get to know your Men. Learn what they need you to be as a soul mate. Go listen to "Jack and Dianne" by Mellencamp a couple of times. Live and love while you still can.
Again this is someone else's writing but I thought it should be shared. The author makes some good points.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 9/29/2007 12:48:45 PM
|
|
|
Geocacher301
Posts: 71
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Fredriqua
That being said, though...
But I CAN'T buy into it. I think it was a sweet, though naive and misguided, reaction to our immoral, sick secular society. It's an understandable reaction. But now I see an entire church who has trained an entire generation to get married in this way, and I don't think it works that well. Finding a spouse should NOT be a "one size fits all" process. The Bible never made it that way, and we shouldn't either.
Frederiqua have digested your post a little more and have a few more comments.
I think that you have a good point about the group approach being a reactionary. So many times we go from one extreme to the other. Look at Joshua Harris. He had a problem with how he interacted with how he interacted with women and his “reaction” was to then “kiss dating goodbye” or so he says.
Sometimes giving something up for a period of time is necessary for growth or especially when we have a problem with something. One example is that one well known Christian Musician felt that God wanted him to give up playing the piano for a season and he did so for six months. God had gifted him with the ability to play piano and sing but temporarily not playing the piano was what he felt God wanted him to do.
The same can be true of dating. There may be seasons when it is appropriate for us to “kiss it goodbye” but that doesn't mean that one has to give up dating forever. As one becomes more spiritually mature they can then move back into dating. As the old cliché goes, don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
This reactionary approach goes something like this:
If you can’t handle yourself with a person of the opposite sex rather than learn how behave properly do all things in groups.
If you might lead someone of the opposite sex on by doing things one on one with them so rather than learning to communicate what your intentions are with the person do all things in groups.
If having any kind of friendship with a person of the opposite sex might lead them so the answer is to always doe things in groups rather than find a healthy way to have these friendships.
With Joshua Harris's example he did kiss dating goodbye for a period due to the problems he had and sin in his life. As others have pointed out, when he became more mature and could handle it he then started dating again but was called courting. He then became married at a young age. Had he not gotten married so young, perhaps he would have moved more into dating. One way to put it is that if you know someone that was around his age and had his problems then maybe it would be a good idea to adopt his approach otherwise adapt what is more appropriate for your situation.
It baffles me that someone that married so young thinks he can write a book that applies to all ages of people. It doesn't appear that he sought out much input from others when he wrote the book. If he had, I am sure he would have been a lot clearer about this not being a one size fits all system.
I think a lot of harm has occurred to the body of Christ when they have used his book as a textbook when he wrote this more as a testimonial. Taking that something that worked for him in his unique situation doesn’t mean it should apply across the board for everyone.
The author of the book does have a video clip on youtube that people might find of interest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVJqlaNJRnw
He appears to be backpedaling such as with statements like the intent of the book was not to say you couldn’t date etc. He claims that the “heart behind it” wasn’t to force someone not to date or not have friendships with the opposite sex but avoid romance before you are ready for that. I certainly have not seen it implemented with that kind of Grace.
I haven’t seen the book for sale at many bookstores recently so maybe that is a good sign that its popularity and push has reached peak and is decreasing.
Another point I would make is that the extreme reactionary approach he promotes probably turns people off to the group system including its good aspects. There are certainly some benefits to some of what he states but something is pushed to such an extreme as he has done I am sure a lot of people just dismiss it all. Thus the benefits of this approach are lost.
I am sure that is hard for Joshua Harris to see the other side and drawbacks to his group approach. I am sure he is surrounded by a number of people in his church telling him what he wants to hear and he is oh so eager to hear that. In many churches, they want people that are conformists and who don't question things. In that type of environment it is hard for him to hear the real truth on this.
What I find interesting here is that I don’t see many if any people posting that they used his approach and successfully found a good mate. That certainly says a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/6/2007 1:11:30 AM
|
|
|
Fredriqua
Posts: 20
Joined: 9/12/2007
Status: offline
|
I think what really boggled my mind about the whole "courtship" movement was listening to a young couple from the church where Josh Harris is now senior pastor.
I'm not saying that Josh Harris is somehow singlehandedly responsible for the "courtship" movement, but definitely, both his IKDG book and his "Boy Meets Girl" book have helped people flesh out how they want their children's relationships to go. By that, I mean that these books and his ideas have now shaped an entire generation who were little kids when IKDG was first published. Parents read these books and took the ideas to heart as THE way for their children to avoid sexual immorality (or heartbreak of any kind, for that matter), and for them (the parents) to maintain a heavy hand of control over whom their children eventually ended up marrying.
Anyway, back to the couple from Josh's church. They both grew up in that church, which has long championed courtship, even before IKDG. They were discussing how they met and married. Again - not that I'm "looks-ist" - but they were a rather mismatched pair, with the girl being far better looking than her hubby. And the guy had approached the girl's father THREE times, asking for permission to "court" the girl. Each time, the father said no, he didn't think she'd be into it. Finally, after the third time, the girl's mother took her aside and said, "Why won't you try courting Joe?" The girl decided to give it a try. On their very first date, Joe told her, "Look, I already know you're what I want, just say the word when you want to get married." They were engaged 6 weeks later, and married within a few months.
I suppose there's nothing wrong with that story, but there was something so oddly passionless about the way the girl recounted it. It was like romance and love to her were emotions that she could flip on and off like a switch. Like somehow, when her mother gave her a "talking to," she just made up her mind that she'd "try" with Joe, and presto, they got married. She even told us how her mother pointed out to her that he had all the qualities of a Godly husband.
I'm still trying to work through all of this in my own thoughts...not for myself, but for my own two young daughters. Do I want them to grow up in a church that believes "courtship" is THE BEST (and most Biblical) way to meet a spouse? I found myself boggled by how everybody else listening to this couple seemed to think that this was a cute and charming love story. I found it oddly robotic and Stepford Wives-ish.
I really LOVE the folks I go to church with, but this courtship stuff is what is driving me to do internet searches to find out just why it bothers me so much...and why my GUT tells me that there's something weird and wrong about it.
Nobody else from church seems to see even the tiniest crack in the courtship armor. Just the other week, the pastor distributed a handout to dads in case they are considering "doing courtship" with their sons or daughters. When I've brought it up to my church friends (those who've been around longer than I have), they all say the same thing, that Josh's book is full of grace and that it's not supposed to be a legalistic system. And yet, when an entire group of people have so deeply internalized the principles of courtship, hasn't it already become legalism, whether intentional or not?
And one final thought to my rambling post here...my gut tells me that courtship among the folks I know is more about the parents than it is about the young people. The vast majority of parents who are so into courtship also homeschool their kids and seem to be hyper-vigilant about maintaining control and submission. And, most importantly, I don't think ANY of these parents would be together today if they'd had to depend on courtship and their parents to choose their spouses for THEM.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/7/2007 7:08:25 PM
|
|
|
crimsonfollower
Posts: 806
Joined: 12/29/2006
From: the middle of nowhere
Status: offline
|
Okay, this is coming from a single 25 year old who still have never been on a "official date " (ie, nobody has ever even asked me out :)).
I read IKDG when I was in my early teens. I followed that by the Ludy books (which are much better in my opinion as has already been mentioned) and learned a lot from both books. My mother also read the books and liked what she was reading. Now, neither one of us 100% agreed with the books back then, and still don't agree with them- even though my sister and I are in our 20s. What I liked, is that the group approach took of a lot of the pressure. I watched my friends all through school go out with guys, think this person was the one, get their heart broke and go out again. Their parents thought is was "cute". But what I saw was a lot of unhappy people who quickly lost the ablity to trust anybody because they always got their hearts broke. While I have had guys that I have liked through the years and had "crushes" on, again nobody has ever seriously asked me out. My family does believe in the basic prinicples of courtship because there are some safe guards that keep hearts from being as easily broken. For example, a young man recently approached my father about dating my sister. Because my parents didn't know this guy, they asked to meet him first before they let my sister meet him. The daughters are suppose to be under the headship of their fathers until they are married- that is Biblical. After meeting the guy- and making sure that he wasn't some sort of crazy, murderer, or that sort of thing- they let the guy and my sister get together a couple of times. During those occassions, they noticed that the guy was pretty shy and almost wouldn't talk with my sister. Now, some of you may be thinking that it was just because he was around all those other people, but on of the occassions was with a mutal family and yet he still didnt' really talk with my sister. While it maybe wasn't an ideal situation to get to know this guy, it probably was better then if they went out on a date just the two of them. She may have gotten him to talk more, but it would have been harder to see who he is. In a group setting, it can be harder to lie about who you are- too many people watching all the time. Anyway, my sister didn't feel any attraction and since my father was already invovled, he was able to tell him that my sister wasn't interested, instead of my sister being the one. Again, I think all of this falls under the principle of daughters being under their fathers.
Now back to me. I have been on many "group dates" and have even spent time alone with guys - just the two of us. They weren't "official" dates, but we did what most people do on dates (I am guessing since I haven't been on one) - talk and eat and share things about our lives. Through this process, I have gotten to know brothers in Christ on a deeper level then I probably would if we were just dating. Our relationship is built on Christ, not on romantic feelings. Am I still 25 and single, yes. Do I think that is the end of the world? No. Do I still think that God has a guy out there for me? Yes. Am I going to follow the "perfect courtship model"? No. And the reason for this is because most of the guys in my area have never heard of courtship. Mine will include the following things though- my parents will be involved. I will listen to their advice and while I may not 100% follow it, I will weigh it heavily in what I do and say with a guy. I will spend most of the time with the guy on group dates- doing church activities, or going out with other friends just as a group- not as dates to movies and such, or with our families - watching movies, working together, playing games... that sor tof thing. Will there be times where just the two of us talk?? Absolutly!! But I don't think that the "dating" scene provides always the best place for that. Some of the best conversations I have had with guys have been while walking along the street or talking on the internet- not while sitting at a resturant wondering who might see us and what they would think. I do think that spending time alone is important, but not all of the time needs to be spent alone. It is when all of the time is spent alone that emotions become cloudy. Do I want my parents to actually pick out a husband for me and say this is the person that you are going to marry? No, but I do want their impute and advice. I have seen family and friends end up in bad marriages because they didn't want to listen to the advice of family and friends. To advoid being one of those people- I am choosing to let my parents and friends be apart of any relationship that I end up in. My parents would allow me to go off and date if I wanted to. They would be hurt, but since I am 25, there isn't much they could do for me. But because I love them and I have seen before that they generally know what is best for me, I choose to continue under their leadership.
Hopefully all of that made sense. It has been a while since I have read the books, but I do remember a few things from them and they did play a part of my family in choosing courtship - and it was a family decision by the way- it was not just my parents telling us girls that this was the way it was going to be.
_____________________________
Beth
"Do not be conformed to this world, but continually be transformed by the renewing of your minds so that you may be able to determine what God's will is-what is proper, pleasing, and perfect." Romans 12:2 ISV
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/8/2007 12:42:46 AM
|
|
|
redcarpet
Posts: 246
Joined: 1/24/2006
From: Southern California
Status: offline
|
quote:
What amazes me is that in "I kissed dating goodbye," Harris describes his promiscuous lifestyle before accepting Christ. Is this someone we want telling us how it should be done? I can understand why an alcoholic would abstain completely from drinking alcoholic beverages, but does that mean I, a person with no history of alcohol abuse, shouldn't have a toast on New Year's Eve? Absolutely not. So why should anyone who hasn't had a problem with lust and promiscuity listen to this guy? Why should you limit a beautiful thing in your life, namely getting to know and feel comfortable around the opposite sex in your teens and twenties, because this guy blew it for himself? Look at his picture on the main page, for Heaven's sake. He is probably nearing his 30's, and he still dresses like some sort of hipster. What kind of grip on reality does this guy have?
I think he meant emotinal promiscuity, not sexual. Didnt he mention in that he didnt have sex until marriage?
I agree that group dating is best for those under 21. If every time I went out with a guy and it was with a group of people, Id just call that hanging out (unless its specifically a double-date)...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/8/2007 12:29:36 PM
|
|
|
Fredriqua
Posts: 20
Joined: 9/12/2007
Status: offline
|
Crimsonfollower,
Thanks for sharing your experience. As I said in my first post, the one thing I respect about IKDG is that it emphasized purity, something that unfortunately is often neglected or ignored among mainstream Evangelicals today. The fact that you and your parents have taken the time to think about these issues is admirable.
But I do think there are parts of your story that illustrate the fallout of the courtship movement. First of all, there's the notion that emotional involvement is something to be guarded against. I can see where it's a good idea to "guard one's heart" from "falling in love" (or infatuation) with every boy who pays attention to one. But in seeing our emotions as something we have absolute control of, it is a slippery slope to the place where we view our romantic side as something we can flip on and off like a switch.
Certainly we don't see this type of emotional sterility in the Bible. For instance, if Jacob's emotions were like that, there is no way he would have been willing to work a total of 14 years for his lovely Rachel. Rather, he would have done the "right thing" and submitted to the desires of Rachel's father, which were that he should marry the older sister Leah. But instead, we see him falling in love with Rachel at first sight, and being so besotted by her that 7 years seemed like no time at all to him.
The reality is that God created our emotions. God Himself is described as being "jealous," passionate, loving...in short, emotional. We are not to allow our emotions to govern us, but the idea that we are to avoid heartbreak at all costs and vigilantly keep ourselves from getting emotionally involved in a romantic relationship before we are committed to that person--well, that's not very realistic OR healthy, and you'd be hard-pressed to find a Biblical command for it, either.
I think I take the most issue with the idea that love and marriage can be handled by this "checklist" approach. Like, when the checklist is complete (the young man is "ready" for marriage, the young man approaches the girl's father, the father deems him acceptable, however long that may take, the young man and woman then embark on a "courtship"), then and only then can the couple allow their emotions to get involved.
I said this before, but I'll say it again: 99% of the world's population would not BE HERE if this system had to be followed. And neither would most of the happy marriages I know!
From your own experience, Crimson, (and also, the experience of your sister) it really looks like this system is not working.
How different would it have been if your sister and that young man had been able to just hang out, away from the watchful and analytical eyes of your family? After all, how comfortable could that poor guy have been, knowing that his whole personality was being watched?
Moreover, what normal, decent young man would be willing to put himself under that type of embarrassing, "heavy" scrutiny, when there ARE plenty of Christian young ladies who can just date...even while they keep purity a priority?
I did that. My sister did that. I have a number of Christian friends who did that, too. So did my own parents. It's not an impossible undertaking. With God's grace and your own commitment, you CAN navigate a normal romantic dating relationship while still honoring God and saving sex for marriage.
One final thought...I think the real fallout of the "courtship" movement spawned by IKDG is that the young people are actually MORE obsessed with that sort of junior high type of infatuation, BECAUSE love and romance are elevated to such serious issues. How tempting is it for a young lady to accept the first offer of courtship to come along? How often does a gal go along with a courtship because she's hit a certain age and has been trained to think that her emotions will fall in line the moment that checklist has been filled in?
I've even heard that there are a number of these courtship-produced marriages that suffer sexual attraction issues later in life. I know a couple who does marriage counseling for a church that has bought into courtship 100%, and that is one of the main things that drives couples into marital counseling.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/9/2007 9:58:56 AM
|
|
|
GregandJenny
Posts: 284
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
Status: offline
|
Where is their a scriptural basis or model for courtship vs that of dating?
_____________________________
The Will of God never takes you to where the Grace of God will not protect you
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/9/2007 12:45:42 PM
|
|
|
Fredriqua
Posts: 20
Joined: 9/12/2007
Status: offline
|
GregandJenny,
I'm certainly no expert, but after seeing this "courtship" thing as what could end up being a "deal-breaker" for us at the church we've been attending (at first, I was mostly worried for my kids and how it would affect them if we didn't buy into courtship while everybody else did, but lately I've been seeing courtship as almost symbollic of how this church views parenting, control, and human nature), I've done some research, and this is what I've found:
Christian proponants of courtship versus dating claim that this parent-led and parent-controlled process of finding a spouse more accurately reflects "biblical norms." They will cite Abraham's sending his servant to go get a wife for Isaac as one example. They will also cite Jewish cultural norms, and then they will say that since we are all deeply and irrevocably ruined by our sin nature, our modern-day culture's approach to romantic love is not God's plan. They cite our dismal divorce statistics as evidence that our current system is not working. And again--because of our inherently evil sin nature, they will say that putting ourselves in the way of temptation by dating is certainly not wise.
They are also fond of all the "guard your heart" verses, and the one where Paul tells Timothy to treat the younger women as sisters.
Because there is more than a grain of truth to what they say, it appeals to earnest, Bible-believing Christians on a number of levels. I've found, in my experience at this church, that it seems to appeal most strongly to those who led "wild" lives before they became Christians. Or to those who had a chaotic childhood and now are intent on shielding their children from ALL painful experiences. Everybody (except us and one other family) at our church homeschools, and this courtship thing also fits well into that very family-focused, parent-led mindset.
Is there a biblical basis for "courtship" versus dating?
Well, you truly cannot find any definite God-ordained formula in Scripture for finding a spouse. For every Isaac story, you have Hosea and Esther and Jacob. For every family that will vehemently argue that a daughter must remain under her father's authority until marriage, you can point to a bunch of exceptions, such as all the women who left home to participate in Jesus' own ministry.
As I've said before, I think there are some very valid points that Harris raises in IKDG about purity, and as the church, we've not always done a good job of discussing morality in an honest and practical way to help young people maintain sexual purity.
But I've concluded that whenever we try to codify guidelines into a "system," such as the courtship system, it almost can't help but turn into a rigid one-size-fits-all legalism. These people are trying to guard against our sin nature, trying to prevent their kids from being in a position to commit sexual sin. That's absolutely admirable. But in so doing, they have ended up also preventing their kids from learning how to have perspective on romance and guy/girl interaction. In the place of lighthearted and CHA | | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
