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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/21/2008 3:25:05 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4558
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
quote:
To say the Muslims worship the One True God is to say they are saved.
No it isn't. Not anymore than saying Jews worship the One True God. They are not saved unless they come to faith in Christ, either.
Acknowledging the similarities between Judaism and Christianity isn't declaring that Jews are saved (without belief in Christ) is it?
And I did not find anything in what you posted that suggested otherwise 
Regardless of the fact they don't grant salvation for their alleged belief in God, the RCC makes claims that are in clear contradiction with the bible regarding God. Muslims do not take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham. Further, they DO NOT value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting. They REJECT God with all their heart and soul and anything they do direrct towards God is seen as evil by God accorind to His word.
One cannot claim to worship God in the true form and as well claim to worship the same God with a group that doesn't worship God in truth. You can't have it both ways. The bible says to reject those who do not have the doctrine of Christ, not to allow the
2 John 1:9-10 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
The above is who the RCC says they worship God with...
Those who deny Christ are not of God... So how can a church that claims God in His complete revealed sense as well worship with a group that denies Christ, which the bible clearly states is a denial of the Father as well..
That is no better than claiming Islamic belief is a path to salvation given that He is a jealous God...
John
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/21/2008 3:47:44 PM
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Ps103
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Since it has been demonstrated and agreed to that the Catholic Church does *not* teach that Muslims are saved, and since this is the Salvation Issues folder, please start another thread to discuss Muslims.
Thanks!
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/21/2008 4:11:54 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4558
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
Since it has been demonstrated and agreed to that the Catholic Church does *not* teach that Muslims are saved, and since this is the Salvation Issues folder, please start another thread to discuss Muslims.
Thanks!
Where is a good place to start a thread regarding the demonstrated and agreed upon view that Catholics worship various forms of God?
John
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/21/2008 4:22:52 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 528
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
quote:
To say the Muslims worship the One True God is to say they are saved.
No it isn't. Not anymore than saying Jews worship the One True God. They are not saved unless they come to faith in Christ, either.
Acknowledging the similarities between Judaism and Christianity isn't declaring that Jews are saved (without belief in Christ) is it?
And I did not find anything in what you posted that suggested otherwise
The Jews do worship the One True God, but they are not saved because they don't have faith in Christ. Where the Muslims, on the other hand, do not worship the one true God. If you look at the Muslim symbol, the Crescent Star, that says it all. Historically, the Arabs were pagans before becoming Muslim, so they worshipped many gods, but their main worship was directed toward the moon god.
The problem with this is two-fold. First, history and archeology show clearly that Allah was worshipped as a pagan moon god long before Mohammed came on the scene. Robert Morey, author of The Islamic Invasion, explains:
"Islam's origins have been traced back by scholars to the ancient fertility religion of the worship of the moon god which was always the dominant religion of Arabia. The moon god was worshipped by praying toward Mecca several times a day, making an annual pilgrimage to the Kabah which was a temple of the moon god, running around the Kabah seven times, caressing an idol of a black stone set in the wall of the Kabah, running between two hills, making animal sacrifices, gathering on Fridays for prayers, giving alms to the poor, etc. These were pagan rites practiced by the Arabs long before Muhammad was born."
http://www.chick.com/information/religions/islam/
So clearly the Muslims do not worship the One True God. I know we are now going off topic, but hopefully now you know they do not worship the God of the Bible and that Roman Catholics should not believe we worship the same God as the Muslims
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
< Message edited by JesKlu -- 5/21/2008 4:30:36 PM >
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/21/2008 6:20:37 PM
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ferdgoodfellow
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Hi Jessica,
Which of the Early Church Fathers (folks who lived after Paul and the rest of the apostles died) was a champion of the doctrine of sola fide, as Luther undestood it?
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/22/2008 2:05:59 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1781
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ferdgoodfellow
Ezra and Jessica,
If the Church fell off the rails immediately after the time of the apostles, and the true gospel was only rediscovered by Luther et al, then that means folks were denied the true gospel for 1500 years. It would seem the Holy Spirit was on strike the whole time. Not!
ferd:
The RCC was not the only church in existence (as you have assumed). There were numerous churches throughout the world that preached the true Gospel while the RCC sank into darkness.
However, the critical issue is how do you interprer Romans chapter 4 as it stands? You brough in James chapter 2, which appears to contradict what Paul says in Romans and Galatians.
Since God does not contradict Himself, there must be another way to understand James. James is focused on the meaning of genuine saving faith (which produces obedience and good works in the saint), whereas Paul is focused on justification by grace through faith (which brings salvation to the sinner).
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/22/2008 8:17:00 AM
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ferdgoodfellow
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Hi Ezra:
quote:
he RCC was not the only church in existence (as you have assumed). There were numerous churches throughout the world that preached the true Gospel while the RCC sank into darkness.
Who were they? What is their history? What evidence is there that they preached sola fide?
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/22/2008 8:32:36 AM
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ferdgoodfellow
Posts: 363
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quote:
However, the critical issue is how do you interprer Romans chapter 4 as it stands? You brough in James chapter 2, which appears to contradict what Paul says in Romans and Galatians.
Since God does not contradict Himself, there must be another way to understand James. James is focused on the meaning of genuine saving faith (which produces obedience and good works in the saint), whereas Paul is focused on justification by grace through faith (which brings salvation to the sinner).
Yes, sola fide does contradict James 2. Luther thought so and wanted to do away with James. Cooler heads prevailed, though, and the Reformers developed ways of reinterpreting James that were compatible with sola fide. But why was it necessary, only starting in the 1500's, to develop a sola fide interpretive tradition if sola fide was part of the Deposit of Faith, handed down to us by the apostles?
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/22/2008 8:50:11 AM
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ferdgoodfellow
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Regarding James 2, James is not trying to define "genuine saving faith." This is clear from the context itself. If some kind of deficient, non-genuine, faith such as "dead" faith were intended by James, then we should be able to substitute it wherever the text mentions faith. And this leads to absurd results such as people boasting of having dead faith (v. 14).
No, James is not trying to define non-saving or dead faith. He is stating a fact, and the problem he addresses isn't the quality of the faith but the aloneness of it.
< Message edited by ferdgoodfellow -- 5/22/2008 8:57:17 AM >
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/22/2008 11:01:37 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2066
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
it has been demonstrated and agreed to that the Catholic Church does *not* teach that Muslims are saved,
Absolutely!! RCC doesn’t not consider Muslims saved. I much as I would like to say otherwise, considering my strong disliking of catholic church multiple, highly crooked ways :)...
I feel compelled to share, for I spend significant amount of time studying the issue, asking Catholics and cornering a C priest, personally.
This is what I ‘ve researched + what he said( my editorial):
The famous p.841
"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
just meant to say that Muslims can be potentially saved if converted to Christianity. P. 841 is patently dumb, - for who is not included in the plan of salvation? Jew or atheist, Moon worshipper, Hindu or Barackobama- every one of those can hear the gospel and become saved, no need to separately address Muslims here.
But before we become highly critical of this whole issue let’s remember that CC deals with almost 2K years of documented abuse of Scripture and people, idiotisms in Popes’ writings, genocide, inquisition, bloody history, popes that would make OJ Simpson look like a saint and other resume spoiling facts.
They had a few popes in the beginning that clearly had Adolf Hitler’s and Napoleon’s complex syndrome, reflected in their writings and actions, shown by hatred for fellow humans, enourmous pride, and lack of belief in Christ and the Gospel.
Denying and condemning such scumbags and renouncing their writings would be best - But here CC shot itself in the foot by inventing “Infallibility”. Now they have a hard task to cover up for the pile of dung produced by church.So RC clumsily attempts to flirt with muslims,etc., everybody trying to butter people up and look nicer.
But RC doesn’t not by no means claims they are saved without believing in Christ. As an honest Christian I cannot charge then with it, even that, when ripped out of context, their words can be easily misinterpreted.
< Message edited by Odeliya -- 5/22/2008 11:09:07 AM >
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/22/2008 6:22:02 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 528
Joined: 4/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ferdgoodfellow
quote:
However, the critical issue is how do you interprer Romans chapter 4 as it stands? You brough in James chapter 2, which appears to contradict what Paul says in Romans and Galatians.
Since God does not contradict Himself, there must be another way to understand James. James is focused on the meaning of genuine saving faith (which produces obedience and good works in the saint), whereas Paul is focused on justification by grace through faith (which brings salvation to the sinner).
Yes, sola fide does contradict James 2. Luther thought so and wanted to do away with James. Cooler heads prevailed, though, and the Reformers developed ways of reinterpreting James that were compatible with sola fide. But why was it necessary, only starting in the 1500's, to develop a sola fide interpretive tradition if sola fide was part of the Deposit of Faith, handed down to us by the apostles?
Sola Fide does not contradict James 2. James is talking to already justified Christians who truly believe. The only problem with them was there was no fruit following their faith. The Epistle of James does not contradict Paul's position that we are only saved by grace through faith. What James was trying to point out is that good works should automatically follow faith. But it still isn't the good works that save us. Faith in Christ alone is what saves us.
If anything, it is the Catholics who mis-interpret the Epistle of James to mean we are justified by works and that is why Luther got all mad and called it an "Epistle of Straw." Meaning, open to much mis-interpretation.
Martin Luther held a VERY high view of Scripture, and that is why he did not take the Epistle out.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
< Message edited by JesKlu -- 5/22/2008 6:33:46 PM >
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/22/2008 6:35:39 PM
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JesKlu
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And, if you really think about it, we can't be justified by good works. Why? Many people of different religions do good works, but that does not mean they are saved. Jews do good works, Muslims do good works, Buddhists do good works, etc etc etc. But are they saved? No. What is the missing piece? Faith in Christ Jesus. So that goes to show that we are justified by faith ALONE.
As it says in Isaiah
Isaiah 64:6
6 We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
We all fade like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
If all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment, how can we be justified by them?
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/22/2008 9:38:19 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1781
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quote:
Yes, sola fide does contradict James 2.
Let's assume for a moment that it does.
Then please spell out in detail what you understand by the finished redemptive work of Christ ("I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do" and "It is finished"-- John 17:4; 19:30) and how our good works contribute towards our salvation in light of that?
Chapter and verse if you please. And kindly do not go off on some tangent (as you frequently do) in order to avoid addressing this critical issue.
It would be most helpful for non-Catholics to know how and why anyone's good works can enhance the finished work of Christ.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/22/2008 10:13:54 PM
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PeterD
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Hello Ezra,
It would be most helpful for non-Catholics to know how and why anyone's good works can enhance the finished work of Christ.
non-catholics might use these
Luke 11:9-13
9And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 11What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; 12or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"
Luke 7:36-50
40And Jesus answering said to him, "Simon, I have something to say to you." And he answered, "Say it, Teacher."
41"A certain moneylender had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42 When they could not pay, he cancelled the debt of both. Now which of them will love him more?" 43Simon answered, "The one, I suppose, for whom he cancelled the larger debt." And he said to him, "You have judged rightly." 44Then turning toward the woman he said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my feet. 46 You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment. 47Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little."
47Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little."
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/23/2008 8:28:16 AM
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ferdgoodfellow
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Thanks PeterD. Feel free to jump in any time.
Hi Ezra,
Jesus had a job to do and he did it. We know what He did, but what zactly did it accomplish for us? Did he win unconditional forgiveness for us in the sense that we have to do absolutely nothing? Obviously not. We have to have faith at least. But beyond that? Do we have to add anything to our faith in order to be justified? A plain reading of James indicates thus. And so does a plain reading of the words of Paul in Romans 2:13: "For it is not the hearers of the law that are just with God, but the doers of the law will be justified." And so do the words of Jesus. e.g. the story of the Rich Young man in Matt. 19:17-21. There are many others, especially if one refrains from viewing everything through the SF lens.
It appears that Jesus left some of the work for us to do and it matters to our salvation if we don't. This makes me think of the Lordship Salvation controversy within Evangelicalism. The antinomian faction led by Hodge really takes SF seriously. All ya gotta do to git saved is believe and trust. MacArthur, OTOH, trying to better account for the scriptures which connect works to justification, tends toward the Catholic position. The point is SF is not a settled doctrine within Protestantdom, and the reason is that it strains to account for all the scriptural data. Before Luther, faith and works were kept together in dynamic tension. Luther pulled them apart.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/23/2008 8:50:23 AM
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ferdgoodfellow
Posts: 363
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Hi Jessica,
quote:
Sola Fide does not contradict James 2. James is talking to already justified Christians who truly believe. The only problem with them was there was no fruit following their faith. The Epistle of James does not contradict Paul's position that we are only saved by grace through faith. What James was trying to point out is that good works should automatically follow faith. But it still isn't the good works that save us. Faith in Christ alone is what saves us.
If anything, it is the Catholics who mis-interpret the Epistle of James to mean we are justified by works and that is why Luther got all mad and called it an "Epistle of Straw." Meaning, open to much mis-interpretation.
Martin Luther held a VERY high view of Scripture, and that is why he did not take the Epistle out.
Luther, no dummy, honestly felt there was a contradiction. Ultimately he didn't throw out Jimmy, but he did demote him. While he revered scripture, he revered some more dan udders and he developed a "canon within a canon" based on how well books promoted SF. Galatians and Romans fared well on that score and James got relegated to the appendix. Luther is glaring example of how the tradition of SF is elevated above everything, even the scriptures themselves.
And I agree that James is speaking to Christians, and he is doing so with their ultimate salvation in view. The problem isn't that they don't have faith. The problem is that their faith isn't bearing fruit. And if it doesn't (i.e. if they don't add works of obedience to their faith), dey ain't gonna be saved.
James illustrates that good works (fruit) do not flow automatically, if only we have genuine, saving faith. We have to choose to produce fruit, and if we don't, our faith can die.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/23/2008 8:55:11 AM
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ferdgoodfellow
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We each have been given a measure of faith and that demands a response from us. If we don't respond to God's grace (i.e. cooperate with it), we can lose what we have been given. Think about Jesus' parable about the Talents.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/23/2008 12:44:03 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2066
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
You are forgiven. 
I just don't want this thread to keep going in that direction, when the other one already had a long discussion about it. (I get forums blur enough as it is  )
thank you dearly, you are very nice to all of us, Ps103, and surely have a spiritual gift of helping people grow in grace in the controlled environment. God will reward your service richly!
Most of us can use your merciful help in that area, for as Bible states taming the tongue is the hardest thing to do , i know that experientially 
again sorry for digressing with the muslims stuff and to direct it back to OP : Salvation in Catholicism is hard to understand and discuss for it's been changing from time to time and earlier positions and writings oF RC contradict modern ones.
Dear Ferd ,
would you kindly offer your opinion on this? Based on what my catholic friend tells me modern RC sees salvation by faith alone and available to all who believe regardless of denomination, (in essense, minus some blurb about being incorrectly connected to RC..) Is that pretty much you view as well, if you care to elaborate, friend?
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/23/2008 5:01:19 PM
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ferdgoodfellow
Posts: 363
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Hi Odeliya,
There is a sense in which Catholics can agree that we are justified by faith alone, that is, if our faith is fully formed and accompanied by hope and love. But faith in the sense of mere intellectual assent, by itself, is insufficient to justify us.
The church recognizes that God's grace is operative outside the confines of the Catholic church and other denominations and even religions have some truth. However, the fullness of truth subsists in the Catholic Church and she is the normal means of salvation for people. However, that doesn't mean that non-catholics can't be saved. God saves whomever He wants to save, and he can and undoubtably does operate outside the normal means and channels. So we recognize that our separated Evangelical brothers and sisters can be saved. We recognize the possibility that God saves Jews, Muslims, Hindus, agnostics, etc. but God would definitely have to be operating out of the ordinary course. We refrain from categorically danging anyone to heck even if they don't believe in Jesus. But in light of Jesus' claim of being the exclusive way of salvation, I would not want to die a non-Christian.
There is one category of person whose prospects for salvation are the dimmest, and that is someone who, knowing the Catholic Church is the true Church established by Christ, refuses to join her or chooses to leave her.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/23/2008 5:34:28 PM
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neverisenough
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
If anything, it is the Catholics who mis-interpret the Epistle of James to mean we are justified by works and that is why Luther got all mad and called it an "Epistle of Straw." Meaning, open to much mis-interpretation.
Martin Luther held a VERY high view of Scripture, and that is why he did not take the Epistle out.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
I have heard that Luther edited scripture to fit his view, and that he was rather vocal about it in his own life time. Now I think that most people read and understand different passages differently from each other. Which is fine, and why we have more then one church in any given area. (at least in the USA). But wouldn't it be nice if we at least all worked from the same translation.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/23/2008 7:16:38 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 910
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
If anything, it is the Catholics who mis-interpret the Epistle of James to mean we are justified by works... Do you just make this stuff up as you go along, or what?
We are justified by faith, but that faith is a faith reflected in righteous actions, thoughts, deeds and accomplishments. So, in absence of righteous thoughts, words, deeds, actions and results, we are called to re-examine our faith and reflect on our profession of it, so as to assure that our profession is not so much empty babble, but truly reflects the conversion of the heart.
I don't know how to make it any plainer than that.
What this means for the faithful is that if righteousness is absent, self-examination is called for regarding faith. One could almost say that absent righteousness and good works, one really doesn't possess any faith, even though one can will the mouth and lips to utter the words of the professions (isn't this what James is really talking about here...). Without that profession being reflected in the action of doing God's will and God's work on this earth, then the profession is nothing but an exhale over the vocal chords - and no more.
Muslims are saved the same way anyone else is saved; by converting to faith in Christ and a relationship with God through Him. I believe that Muslims worship the same God the Jewish people do - a reading of the Qumran would confirm this, I think. However, they do not recognize that we are called to be in relationship with God through Jesus - in the New Covenant - similar to the way the Jewish faith does not recognize this call to a new relationship.
The Catholic Church recognizes that the disciplines and rigors of a practice of either one of these faiths may be the spark or inspiration that could lead one to examine Jesus and to examine the relationship with God as revealed through Jesus.
This is how converts are made. If you guys don't want them, we Catholics will take them in...
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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