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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/8/2008 11:28:33 PM
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texastweet
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quote:
WHat about your position? Honestly, i would like to know it for it feels i am debating something without knowing your position. What is absolutely essential for salvation, in your view? O, Everything is essential in short. I don't have a "position" per say--I am trying to do and follow what God has revealed and what we owe to Him. We will be judged for all our actions and what the Church teaches we have to die in a state of grace. In order to maintain that state the Lord has given us the guidance of the Church and the sacraments. Otis
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/9/2008 8:13:27 PM
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gatolover
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Hi Wes, quote:
My concern is that man as a fallen creature is not perfect, and there are times that we will unknowingly do something that is wrong. That is also the concern of the Catholic Church, thus her propensity to teach and catechize. I'm interested in understanding how you believe a disciple of Christ can "unknowingly do something that is wrong." If you are referring to those who have never heard the Gospel, have been denied the opportunity to embrace Christianity, or have been raised in an environment which is hostile to Christ's message, they cannot be expected to do "right" according to Christian standards, unless, by God's Grace, their hearts convict them. In that case, they are responsible for seeking a fuller understanding of the Faith. Continuing to willfully reject conviction is a dangerous road. quote:
Reference the differences in doctrinal stance that is present here on the forums. We are striving to live a Christlike existence, but we have various views on several things. Some of these things are quite important! Exactly the Catholic Christian point, my friend! We believe Christ did not intend chaos, but unity of belief according to the Truth He taught, lived, and instituted in His Church. You are right, everything is important. quote:
For those of us who are wrong (everyone that doesn't agree with me - ), does that equate to sin? Only God and the individual know for sure. According to Catholic thought, willful sin in a grave matter without repentance endangers a soul's hope of salvation. Intent of the heart may play a role in His judgement, but it is only the Lord's place to judge any individual. quote:
The postulation from the Catholic person I received this declaration from says that it is impossible for it to be a sin for a Catholic member. Not sure how to respond to this. If the hypothetical Catholic in question has rejected the clear teaching of the Church, refused to form a "good conscience" regarding the point, and willfully rejects the counsel of the Church, it may be a grave sin, indeed. Unfortunately, dear Wes....there are more than a few "cafeteria Catholics." I commit them to the mercy of my Lord and Saviour Who will judge justly. Pax et bonum, gatolover
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/11/2008 8:59:14 AM
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WesP
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quote:
Not sure how to respond to this. If the hypothetical Catholic in question has rejected the clear teaching of the Church, refused to form a "good conscience" regarding the point, and willfully rejects the counsel of the Church, it may be a grave sin, indeed. Unfortunately, dear Wes....there are more than a few "cafeteria Catholics." I commit them to the mercy of my Lord and Saviour Who will judge justly. Pax et bonum, gatolover I understood him to mean that he was doctrinally sound in the Catholic teachings, so that was why I asked about his stance. I acknowledge that there are many who claim wisdom while they are actually foolish, so I was not about to argue this without input from others of the RCC commenting. Thanks for your assistance!
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Peace, Wes ___________________________________ <--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/11/2008 11:44:13 AM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet O: What is absolutely essential for salvation, in your view? Otis: Everything is essential in short. I don't have a "position" per say--I am trying to do and follow what God has revealed and what we owe to Him. We will be judged for all our actions and what the Church teaches we have to die in a state of grace. In order to maintain that state the Lord has given us the guidance of the Church and the sacraments. Otis, we absolutely agree here.We all are trying to serve Lord to the best of our ability. Looks like you and other respected Catholic posters agree there will be non catholic people in heaven. I also know there are wonderful, God loving Catholic brothers /sisters around. While we have our doctrinal disagreements, I also see clearly that people here- DH, Gato, Mary, you and a few others I talked to do love the Lord with all their hearts! CC has a wealth of useful resources to read and enlighten, especially lives of saints – even if 10% is true and the rest is authors exaggeration- they were exceptional people. I don’t even dream to become half the Christian they were. Appreciate you help, it was a pleasure. That concludes my presence on this thread, thank you sincerely.
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/14/2008 12:09:42 AM
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gatolover
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Dear Wes SBG, quote:
I understood him to mean that he was doctrinally sound in the Catholic teachings, so that was why I asked about his stance. I acknowledge that there are many who claim wisdom while they are actually foolish, so I was not about to argue this without input from others of the RCC commenting. I have no idea who this individual is or where this individual might be coming from, and it doesn't really matter. What matters is where this particular individual has placed his faith, trust, and obedience. Hopefully, it is in Christ. If he/she claims to be a faithful follower of Christ and His Church, there is no excuse for ignorance, though willful rejection is not out of the question. It's really quite easy to catechize oneself, but always good to fellowship at the same time. quote:
Thanks for your assistance! Pleasure was all mine. Not sure how much assistance I offered anyway. Peace of Christ, and blessed Lent, gatolover
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/17/2008 2:25:48 PM
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earthless
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Some have said that the Council of Trent's declarations have been recalled and done away with - can someone please show me the evidence for this, I must have missed it in the news. Thank you.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/17/2008 8:02:35 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChelseaRae Hey Earthless! The documents from the Council have not been recalled, not at all! I am happy to show you them, thank you for being willing to learn. I normally stay away from the theology threads because I don't like how people talk about my church. Let's agree to discuss things openly and charitably okay? If I understand correctly you are under the impression that the Council of Trent says that you are a heretic and therefore have no salvation? Is that your problem with the council? I'm really quite excited at the thought of a charitable discussion, thank you again! Yes, I know they have not been recalled. My issue with them is that they, in a plethora of its decrees, calls me anathema. Here are just some examples: FOURTH SESSION: DECREE CONCERNING THE CANONICAL SCRIPTURES: "If anyone does not accept as sacred and canonical the aforesaid books in their entirety and with all their parts [the 66 books of the Bible plus 12 apocryphal books, being two of Paralipomenon, two of Esdras, Tobias, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, Sophonias, two of Macabees], as they have been accustomed to be read in the Catholic Church and as they are contained in the old Latin Vulgate Edition, and knowingly and deliberately rejects the aforesaid traditions, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA." SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 12). SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24). SEVENTH SESSION, CANONS ON BAPTISM: "If anyone says that in the Roman Church, which is the mother and mistress of all churches, there is not the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on Baptism, Canon 3). SEVENTH SESSION, CANONS ON BAPTISM: "If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on Baptism, Canon 5).
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/17/2008 8:13:56 PM
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ChelseaRae
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Alright, lets talk about Anathema then. This is a widely misunderstood term by Catholics and Non-Catholics alike. These are the most common errors: With this as background, the absurdity of the things said by anti-Catholics about the anathemas pronounced by Trent and other councils is plain. A number of errors are nearly ubiquitous in anti-Catholic writings: quote:
1. An anathema sentenced a person to hell. This is not the case. Sentencing someone to hell is a power that is God’s alone, and the Church cannot exercise it. 2. An anathema was a sure sign that a person would go to hell. Again, not true. Anathemas were only warranted by very grave sins, but there was no reason why the offender could not repent, and those who repent aren’t damned. 3. An anathema was a sure sign that a person was not in a state of grace. This is not true for two reasons: (a) The person may have repented since the time the anathema was issued, and (b) the person may not have been in a state of mortal sin at the time the anathema was issued. Anathemas—like penalties imposed under civil law—rest on the judgment of the court, which must make its decision based on the evidence presented. It cannot directly examine the conscience of the individual in question. Thus, while anathemas were imposed on account of gravely sinful behavior, this was not a guarantee that it was mortally sinful. For a grave sin to become mortal, it must be performed with the requisite knowledge and consent, and while an offender might have given every appearance of these conditions, they might not be there in reality—e.g., through a hidden cognitive or volitional impediment. 4. Anathemas were meant to harm the offender. No. Anathemas were simply a major excommunication performed with a special papal ceremony, and, like all excommunications, their intent was medicinal, not punitive. The goal was to protect the Christian community from the spread of evil doctrines or behaviors and to prompt the individual to recognize the nature of his actions. While being deprived of the fellowship of the Church is not pleasant, this does not change the fact that the fundamental orientation of excommunications and anathemas is medicinal, not punitive. 5. Anathemas took effect automatically. While the Church does have penalties that take effect automatically (latae sententiae), the penalty of anathema was not one of them. This should be obvious from the fact that a special pontifical ceremony had to be performed as part of the anathema. Obviously, the mere fact that someone utters a heresy in some part of the world does not cause the pope to suddenly stop what he is doing and perform a specific ritual concerning this person. The anathemas of Trent and other councils were like most penalties of civil law, which only take effect through the judicial process. If the civil law prescribes imprisonment for a particular offense, those who commit it do not suddenly appear in jail. Likewise, when ecclesiastical law prescribed an anathema for a particular offense, those who committed it had to wait until the judicial process was complete before the anathema took effect. 6. Anathemas applied to all Protestants. The absurdity of this charge is obvious from the fact that anathemas did not take effect automatically. The limited number of hours in the day by itself would guarantee that only a handful of Protestants ever could have been anathematized. In practice the penalty tended to be applied only to notorious Catholic offenders who made a pretense of staying within the Catholic community. 7. Anathemas are still in place today. This is the single most common falsehood one encounters regarding anathemas in the writings of anti-Catholics. They aren’t in place today. The penalty was employed so infrequently over the course of history that it is doubtful that anyone under an anathema was alive when the new Code of Canon Law came out in 1983, when even the penalty itself was abolished. 8. The Church cannot retract its anathemas. Anti-Catholics love to repeat this falsehood for rhetorical flourish. But again, it isn’t true. The Church is free to abolish any penalty of ecclesiastical law it wants to, and it did abolish this one. Taken from this article. Now I know it is easy to just post a link to some big article and provide no further explanation and I don't want to get involved in that, I don't have unlimited time to read endless articles and I'm sure you don't either. With that said I urge you to read the entire article, it is short and I feel that it explains the term and your objections much more eloquently than I ever could. As an aside, I apologize for the ending remarks in the article, I hope you do not find them offensive, please keep in mind that I didn't write it and I'm sure it wasn't written in a spirit of malice. I look forward to hearing your response
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/18/2008 9:26:51 AM
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earthless
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So your response is that anathema is indeed a "sure sign of someone going to hell" but it's not that bad... because the person can repent? So I'm cool as long as I, before I die, I accept the RCC and all of its teachings? Whew! I am so glad that requirement is not in the Bible. I am a born-again believer and am His and He is mine for all eternity. Nothing on earth, nor in heaven, nor below, etc.. can take me out of Jesus. The Roman Catholic Church continues to pronounce a curse to hell “anathema” upon those who would reject the authority of the Pope, Scripture reserves that curse for those who would teach a different gospel (Galatians 1:8-9). But I would like to get back to the original point which is that the RCC declaring me and others as anathema is, according to you, not as severe as I had originally said. In Noah Webster's 1828 dictionary of the English-language, anathema is defined as "Communication with curses. Hence, a curse or denunciation by ecclesiastical authority, a company exit indication. This species of excommunication was practiced in the ancient churches, against notorious offenders; all churches were warned not to receive them; all magistrates and private persons were admonished not to harbor or maintain them, and priests were enjoined not to converse with them, or attend a funeral. Dictionary.com defines anathema as "A formal ecclesiastical ban, curse, or excommunication. A formal and denunciation; a curse." The Catholic Encyclopedia says, "In the New Testament anathema no longer entails death, but the loss of goods or exclusion from the society of the faithful...At an early date the Church adopted the word anathema to signify the exclusion of a sinner from the society of the faithful; but the anathema was pronounced chiefly against heretics." Obviously, a Catholic anathema is a very serious thing, but Catholic anathema does not necessarily mean that a person thus anathematized goes to hell. Interestingly enough the Bible also uses the term anathema in the following passages: 1 Corinthians 12:3, 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 9:3, Galatians 1:8-9. The passages, which readers can look up for their own study, show that to be anathema, in the biblical sense, it to be separated from Jesus Christ. In Galatians chapter 1 we see the Apostle Paul teaching that preaching a false gospel is accursed, anathema. A false gospel cannot save and instead brings deception and damnation. This seems to be another way to demonstrate that to be anathema is to be eternally damned. We see that the Bible uses the term to mean separated from Christ. If someone is separated from Christ, he is lost. So you are indeed correct in that the RCC declaring me to be anathema is not necessarily outright saying I am forever hell bound. BUT since a Catholic anathema is a declaration that an individual is excluded from the fellowship of the RCC, which includes denial of Communion and the Catholic sacraments. Meaning that according to the RCC, me and other Christians, are excluded and unable to "achieve/gain" salvation ala RCC unless we repent of our error of not accepting the RCC as the one and only true church. In the end? Same difference.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/18/2008 10:56:42 AM
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Catholicandloveit
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Earthless - Good Morning, I posted this a few pages back but wanted to post it again, I didn't want to make you hunt through old posts :)! In regards to what the Catholic Church teaches about the salvation of others - Straight from the CCC, I know many non-catholic Christians want nothing to do with the CCC but it is a great place to look for the true wording of the Catholic Churches teachings on hundreds of subjects. The early Church held the same position on this as the contemporary Church does—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847). The Catechism also makes it clear, that this is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his church (#847). We know that God can use extraordinary means to save any person, but the only ordinary means of salvation we know of is through the church. BTW the Catholic Church does not teach that all Catholics will go to heaven either. May you have a Blessed Holy Week, Mary
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/18/2008 12:47:02 PM
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ChelseaRae
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quote:
So your response is that anathema is indeed a "sure sign of someone going to hell" but it's not that bad... because the person can repent? So I'm cool as long as I, before I die, I accept the RCC and all of its teachings? Whew! I am so glad that requirement is not in the Bible. I am a born-again believer and am His and He is mine for all eternity. Nothing on earth, nor in heaven, nor below, etc.. can take me out of Jesus. Lol, I like your sense of humor, I'm glad we can keep this fairly lighthearted instead of getting serious and angry, lets keep that up! That is not what I meant at all, I just wanted to make sure we were both understanding where the term came from and were using it in the same way. Lets move on shall we? Can I ask what faith you are coming from? I know you said you are a born-again believer, do you associate yourself with any specific denomination? It might help me understand more of your views. quote:
The Roman Catholic Church continues to pronounce a curse to hell “anathema” upon those who would reject the authority of the Pope, Scripture reserves that curse for those who would teach a different gospel (Galatians 1:8-9). Lets get one thing straight here... the Catholic church has absolutely no power to damn anyone to hell. Going to hell would be an individual's perogative - if you go to hell you are choosing to go to hell. Anathema does not mean "let him be damned to hell" but "let him be cut off" there is a huge difference! quote:
Interestingly enough the Bible also uses the term anathema in the following passages: 1 Corinthians 12:3, 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 9:3, Galatians 1:8-9. The passages, which readers can look up for their own study, show that to be anathema, in the biblical sense, it to be separated from Jesus Christ. In Galatians chapter 1 we see the Apostle Paul teaching that preaching a false gospel is accursed, anathema. A false gospel cannot save and instead brings deception and damnation. You seem to have forgotten Judith 16:23. The bible uses the term there as well. quote:
let's examine the biblical meaning of the Greek word anathema. It literally means to be suspended, placed on high, or set aside. In the Bible the term is sometimes used in the positive sense of being to something which is dedicated to God. For example, in Judith 16:23, "Judith dedicated as a votive offering [anathema] to God all the things of Holofernes that the people had given her, as well as the canopy that she herself had taken from his bedroom." In an act of desperation as he saw God's wrath being kindled against him, the evil King Antiochus "vowed to the Lord, who would no longer have mercy on him, that he would set free the holy city, toward which he had been hurrying with the intention of leveling it to the ground and making it a common graveyard. . . [and that] he would adorn with the finest offerings [anathemata] the temple which he had previously despoiled" (2 Mace. 9:13-14, 16). Luke describes the Temple as being, "adorned with costly stones and votive offerings [anathemata]" (Luke 21:5). That is from here. quote:
So you are indeed correct in that the RCC declaring me to be anathema is not necessarily outright saying I am forever hell bound. BUT since a Catholic anathema is a declaration that an individual is excluded from the fellowship of the RCC, which includes denial of Communion and the Catholic sacraments. I already addressed the hell bound issues... that is between you and God This use of the term anathema has a very precise meaning: Let him be cut off from the Church, not let him be damned to hell. And this is done by the Church in her wisdom as a way of trying to bring the one in error to his senses - before it's too late and he is damned to hell by virtue of his obstinacy. So you see, it was really meant for Catholics, you are not a Catholic so it really didn't apply to you quote:
An anathema or excommunication is designed to remind the sinner of his eventual fate if he doesn't repent. That's why the Church is always ready to absolve and receive back the repentant sinner. That's why those who willingly disobey the Church's teachings may be anathematized - so that they will recognize the grave danger of such a course and be willing to return to the fold. And, of course, the Lord himself taught that excommunication is the Church's most severe method of dealing with members who sin grievously (heresy, schism, willingly procuring or helping someone to procure an abortion, illicitly ordaining bishops, and apostasy) when he said, "If your brother sins, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses' [Deut. 19:15]. If he refuses to listen to them, tell the Church. If he refuses to listen even to the Church, then treat him as you would a Gentile o r a tax collector. Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 18:15-18). Paul expands on the theme of excommunication: "It is widely reported that there is immorality among you and immorality of a kind not found even among the pagans. . . The one who did this should be expelled from your midst. I, for my part, although absent in body but present in spirit, have already, as if present, pronounced judgment on the one who has committed this deed, in the name of our Lord Jesus: When you have gathered together and I am with you in spirit with the power of the Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. . . Do you not know that a little yeast leavens all the dough? Clear out the old yeast, so that you may become a fresh batch of dough. . . . Purge the evil person from your midst" (1 Cor. 5:1-7, 13). (now I'm not calling you a Gentile, or a tax collector, or bad yeast... just wanted to bring in some biblical passages ) The church in no way excludes anyone from salvation, but let's not go there until we have established that the Council of Trent did not try and damn you, in an effort to make it so our posts are not eight pages long I will stop here and await your response
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/18/2008 4:34:47 PM
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earthless
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Simple question... a yes or no question.. Can I be a born-again believer, a Christian saved and heaven bound, filled with the Holy Spirit, stamped and sealed for the day of redemption without the RCC in any shape, form, or fashion?
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/18/2008 5:32:12 PM
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earthless
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Two things: 1) It's sad that you feel you cannot know. The Bible clearly and repeatedly, in context, tells us how we can be sure of being saved, eternally secure. I am 100% confident I am a born-again believer - stamped and sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption. Secure for all eternity. Not because of anything in me, nor my "good" works, or lack of certain sins, etc.. But solely and wholly because of Jesus and what He accomplished on the cross. Because of His precious shed blood on Calvary that paid the full and utter price of my sin. We can be exclamation points pointing straight to God for all to see. Not hunched over question marks never knowing if we are saved or of our position in Christ. 2) Every historic declaration from the RCC (like the Council of Trent) does not align with your claim that the RCC fully believes I can be and am saved apart from the RCC. But I guess we may have reached a dead end? Not sure. But your answer to my question is a yes. According to you I can be a Christian just like you, saved, without the RCC in any shape or form. Thanks for answering my question.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/18/2008 9:18:26 PM
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ChelseaRae
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quote:
1) It's sad that you feel you cannot know. The Bible clearly and repeatedly, in context, tells us how we can be sure of being saved, eternally secure. Don't be sad, I am very happy with my faith! quote:
2) Every historic declaration from the RCC (like the Council of Trent) does not align with your claim that the RCC fully believes I can be and am saved apart from the RCC. But I guess we may have reached a dead end? Not sure. But your answer to my question is a yes. According to you I can be a Christian just like you, saved, without the RCC in any shape or form. Thanks for answering my question. I said you could be a Christian, and that it would be possible for you to be saved. My church teaches the same thing. To say every historic declaration from my church doesn't align with what I have said is a very bold statement, I don't feel we have come to a dead end and would appreciate a chance to show you what my church really teaches. I feel that a lot of protestants out there have false impressions of what the Catholic church teaches, if you are willing to have an open mind I would like to continue our dialog, I feel that we could learn a lot from each other and possibly put to rest some common misconceptions.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/19/2008 8:07:51 AM
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earthless
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Nearly all of my family is Catholic and I know a lot more about the RCC than most self-professed Catholics. But I appreciate the offer.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/19/2008 12:23:09 PM
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kielbasa
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I thought all of your family was WOF or Pentecostal...perhaps I misread your other posts? It always tickles me when people say "I was Catholic once [or my family is Catholic], therefore I know more about Catholicism than Catholics do." Well, why is it, when this is said, that the things they write on message boards is always so flawed? They build strawmen and fight them, when what they say is not what we believe at all. They should know that Catholics do not accept "Once Saved, Always Saved." We believe one must remain in the faith till the end, like Paul said, so we cannot declare anyone saved or not. It isn't that we have no confidence in our salvation--we just lack crystal balls. And they should also know that Catholics consider all Christians who have been baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirt (ie, not Oneness) to be joined to the Church in some way, so they are not "outside" the Catholic Church in our view. So the idea that non-Catholic Christians are bound for hell is another of the strawmen.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 3/21/2008 8:56:08 AM
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earthless
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