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Fritzpw_Admin -> Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (8/11/2006 11:33:44 AM)

This thread is created in order to provide an area for users to debate and discuss mental health related issues such as the following:

ADD, ADHD, Bi-Polar, Depression, etc.

This thread is not intended to be a place where one receives encouragement or support or to discuss one's personal issues.

Online Community should not be viewed as a replacement for the development of relationships with local people. Nor should it be considered an alternative to one getting medical or spiritual counseling.

Please do not start new discussions on topics that are mental health related.

Because of the nature of the topics that may take place in this thread and because certain individuals may not be equipped to discuss them in an appropriate manner we reserve the right to edit, restrict, or ban any individual for any reason at our sole discretion. We reserve the right to take that action without giving any reason for the decision.

Users who engage in this thread do so at their own risk and Salem Web Network can not be held liable for any consequences or responses made within the Community.



Hischild1994 -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (8/13/2006 2:11:47 AM)

Thank you Fritz for starting this thread.



milkbone -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (8/13/2006 8:25:18 PM)

ADD, ADHD, Bi-Polar, Depression, etc.

Where were these disorders 100 years ago, 50 years ago, 25 years ago???? Did we cope, turn to our families?

Remember the valium craze?
Are we now a Prozac Nation?

Or have we all become junkies to the fix of the day?

We now drug our school kids to behave, ritilin?

Whats next???
remember the song...mothers little helper??

Sow and reap from the hippie generations when we all were trash cans, anything in our bodies?

Are we all like the crack babies from our parents addictions?
ya better think :-(



agapetos -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (8/13/2006 8:44:03 PM)

quote:

Where were these disorders 100 years ago, 50 years ago, 25 years ago???? Did we cope, turn to our families?
Just because they didn't have a name, doesn't mean they didn't exist.

As for medication ~ I take it ~ it's my choice. I know that before I started to take it I didn't understand the sermons at my church and couldn't follow any coversations in small groups. I can now. It's still difficult, but at least I get something out of it.

And I also believe that many children and adults are misdaignosed and/or over-medicated.



Kardinal -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (8/14/2006 1:27:16 AM)

I think we have had all of these problems/disorders ever since God created Man, because of our understanding has increaseed we are now more aware of these issues. I agree that in many circumstances our children are over medicated. In many of the cases of children being a problem, I find that the nut (no pun intended) has not fallen far from the tree.

The situation is not that the child is a problem or the parents are a problem, it is often a situation of the parents not knowing how to parent. There is no requirement to become a parent. Most of us learn to be parents from our own parental rolemodels. As a professional counselor working with children one of my first goals is helping the parents to understand behavior and to help them learn better parenting skills while also helping thier child express themselves in better ways

Mental health treatment especially with children needs to be a holistic approach. Including good general physical medicene to rule out biological/neurological problems, spiritual counseling from a pastor, counseling with a pediatric counselor to work out behavioral/mental health issues, a nutrionist to check that diet, and the child's school.

I think in a lot of cases the over medication comes from two parts. First is laziness, people like to pop pills, most people see thier MD and ask for the pills. If they see a counselor they want a 3 session course of counseling to fix the problem. Caring for a mental health issue is a tough proposition, usually requiring intense work from both the professionals and the patient. Second look to insurance, often I feel it is greater then 80% insurance will only pay for X amount of treatment and/or course of pills. We do not want to pay out of pocket so we have to go with what our insurances will cover.

Every counselor and just about every MD, I have worked with, will work with thier patient's income level to provide them the best possible care with out being hamstrung by insurance companies or causing difficulty to the patient.

Ok so enough ranting and raving by me.

Anything I said can not be used as professional advice, just friendly opinion.



stateofgrace -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (8/14/2006 8:24:38 AM)

Thank the Lord! Now we have a debate thread and an enouragement thread on this topic!



phosadaud -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (8/14/2006 3:19:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: milkbone

ADD, ADHD, Bi-Polar, Depression, etc.

Where were these disorders 100 years ago, 50 years ago, 25 years ago???? Did we cope, turn to our families?

Remember the valium craze?
Are we now a Prozac Nation?

Or have we all become junkies to the fix of the day?

We now drug our school kids to behave, ritilin?

Whats next???
remember the song...mothers little helper??

Sow and reap from the hippie generations when we all were trash cans, anything in our bodies?

Are we all like the crack babies from our parents addictions?
ya better think :-(


Actually many years ago people who struggled with mental issues had the following options:

1. Suicide
2. Mental asylum with no treatment - just suffer away from the eyes of society
3. Burned at the stake
4. Live as an anti-social hermit and probably die from malnutrition and such.

Fortunately, like many health problems, today we have some treatment options to help people with the suffering. Yes, I said suffering.

I lived the first 30 years of my life trying anything and everything to cope with and manage my panic disorder. I pleaded with God for years to take it from me. Today, I can proudly say that He has taken it from me - by me taking a small pill everyday. Thank you Jesus! I am not a junkie just as someone who takes pills everyday to keep their blood pressure in check is not a junkie. Some may abuse medications for physical ailments but that doesn't mean all who take medications for physical ailments are junkies. The same is true for those who must (yes, must) take medication to manage mental health disorders. There are those who abuse it - but that doesn't mean that all do. To be honest, if you knew the horrendous side effects many psychiatric medications have, you would know that taking a pill isn't always an "easy" thing. [&:]



womaninchrist -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (8/14/2006 3:38:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kardinal

I think we have had all of these problems/disorders ever since God created Man, because of our understanding has increaseed we are now more aware of these issues. I agree that in many circumstances our children are over medicated. In many of the cases of children being a problem, I find that the nut (no pun intended) has not fallen far from the tree.

The situation is not that the child is a problem or the parents are a problem, it is often a situation of the parents not knowing how to parent. There is no requirement to become a parent. Most of us learn to be parents from our own parental rolemodels. As a professional counselor working with children one of my first goals is helping the parents to understand behavior and to help them learn better parenting skills while also helping thier child express themselves in better ways


That right there is often a HUGE part of the problem. While the church says much about how children should react to their parents, very little is said about what parents should be doing toward their children. Appropriately firm, consistent, reasonable discipline is one thing. Random beatings for anything a parent deems worthy of calling an "infraction" is quite another - and even small children can figure out the difference.

You can't raise children in an unpredictable, abusive and often violent home environment and expect them to grow up calm, level headed and "normal"...even if that's what you survived when you were a child. And once a child endures such a home and reaches adulthood, it can be very, very difficult to teach that child a more appropriate version of normal than the one they grew up seeing at home.

But then to say that because a person who endured such a home developed a mental illness (often PTSD or a dissociative disorder) automatically has unrepentant sins, demonic oppression/possession or even "moral failure" on the basis of the "evidence" of their diagnosis is many shades of wrong and does quite a bit of further injury. Not that they never have issues with sins or demonic activity, but that such should be determined by closer examination and discernment than an assumption that "condition A = sins B, C & D along with demons E, F & G". Especially considering that often what you're viewing is the end results of the problems of the PARENTS, not the child.

And phosadaud is very right as to what was previously done to the mentally ill... Ugly truth, isn't it?



stateofgrace -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (8/14/2006 4:35:23 PM)

As far as where were these people in the past?


Let me tell you about two of my relatives who were not "serious" enough to be committed but definately struggled...

I know in the case of my grandmother, who was a preacher's wife and suffered from chronic depression, it was hidden as much as possible by family members. They had a young woman living with them to help with the kids and the cooking, etc.

She was considered a rather "cold" person by many people - the truth was more that she was depressed and withdrawn. She WAS hospitialized after my grandfather died - I remember my parents saying that she "had a breakdown." At that point, of course, since she was widowed, she wasn't the wife any longer of an active pastor. Just imagine what the congregation would have thought of such a thing in the 1950s and 1960s.

Other family members with mental health problems simply lived on the outskirts of life, only semi-functional. Like my uncle who horaded things (cleaning out his apartment was horrible), never had a stable dating relationship, never got married, held down a very minimal job for much of his adult life (gotten through family connections), and finally fell prey to health problems decades before he had to, simply because he wouldn't or was unable to take care of his own health.

My point is that these conditions existed...if you were really obvious and you completely couldn't function, you got sent somewhere. If it was "simply" depression or OCD or something, family members tried to cover for you as much as possible. You might bungle through life as my uncle did, definatly affected but just considered "eccentric" or something. But dying from cancer that you didn't get treated (when you could), in your 50's, in a small apartment crammed with stuff (newspapers, etc.) you hoarded, isn't much of a life, IMO.



Hischild1994 -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (8/14/2006 9:12:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: phosadaud

quote:

ORIGINAL: milkbone

ADD, ADHD, Bi-Polar, Depression, etc.

Where were these disorders 100 years ago, 50 years ago, 25 years ago???? Did we cope, turn to our families?

Remember the valium craze?
Are we now a Prozac Nation?

Or have we all become junkies to the fix of the day?

We now drug our school kids to behave, ritilin?

Whats next???
remember the song...mothers little helper??

Sow and reap from the hippie generations when we all were trash cans, anything in our bodies?

Are we all like the crack babies from our parents addictions?
ya better think :-(


Actually many years ago people who struggled with mental issues had the following options:

1. Suicide
2. Mental asylum with no treatment - just suffer away from the eyes of society
3. Burned at the stake
4. Live as an anti-social hermit and probably die from malnutrition and such.

Fortunately, like many health problems, today we have some treatment options to help people with the suffering. Yes, I said suffering.

I lived the first 30 years of my life trying anything and everything to cope with and manage my panic disorder. I pleaded with God for years to take it from me. Today, I can proudly say that He has taken it from me - by me taking a small pill everyday. Thank you Jesus! I am not a junkie just as someone who takes pills everyday to keep their blood pressure in check is not a junkie. Some may abuse medications for physical ailments but that doesn't mean all who take medications for physical ailments are junkies. The same is true for those who must (yes, must) take medication to manage mental health disorders. There are those who abuse it - but that doesn't mean that all do. To be honest, if you knew the horrendous side effects many psychiatric medications have, you would know that taking a pill isn't always an "easy" thing. [&:]


Phosadaud- I wanted to respond to that post, but you pretty much said everything that I would have said.

BTW- I do think that there are times when children shouldn't be put on meds, but there are also times when they should.



phosadaud -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (8/14/2006 11:24:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: just-1-me
BTW- I do think that there are times when children shouldn't be put on meds, but there are also times when they should.


I agree 100%. There is a middle ground in there that is probably the best option. Sadly, we tend to go either one way or the other - medicate everyone or don't medicate anyone. Neither is right.



Kardinal -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (8/15/2006 12:39:33 AM)

phosadaud

Take a look at my original post, I do not know how quote myself on here. I agree that some children are over medicated, but in my experience it goes back to what I said except apply it to parents.

Parents are lazy and just want a quick fix, so lets get some pills -or- Their insurance only covers a specific course of treatment and it is nearly impossible for the parents to get insurance to cover extra therapy or to change a course of medication.

I work with parents from all kinds of circumstances. I think that many parents need to ask more questions, particularly the right questions to professionals. So many parents just except whatever the issue is, and just go along with the plan laid out for thier children. Working with professionals is what I think of the best plan, being a professional myself.

Jeff



phosadaud -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (8/15/2006 1:03:09 PM)

Jeff - I don't have an issue with your post - it was post #3 that got me fired up. I agree that some meds are abused by some. Heck, my best friends brothers was pressured to take Ritalin from his school (he is NOT ADD) but his parents intervened and refused. I just think there needs to be a balance. I personally know some kids who are truly ADD and have seen that in some cases this can severely hurt them and their ability to function. The parents of them worked hard with them - counseling, tutoring, etc and some did opt for medication (in addition to the other stuff) and the kids finally thrived on it. I agree that there are many who shouldn't be on medication and that some folks (parents, schools, doctors) look at medicating kids as a quick fix. I absolutely, 100%, condemn that attitude - just as much as I condemn the attitude in post #3.



Hischild1994 -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (8/15/2006 1:51:25 PM)

I have a friend who has adopted a little girl who was a crack baby.
She is 3 right now and very energetic and seems to have many problems following very simple commands that most 3 year olds can comprehend with no problem. Her attention span is very limited at best. Mom and Dad are doing everything they can to not have her medicated. Unfortunately, there may come a time when they have to medicate her. That is not poor parenting, it's just a case of a child needing meds.

I have another friend who has two boys both on meds. She rarely disciplines them unless she has gotten to the point where she is in a rage. Otherwise they are allowed to get away with whatever. These boys practically lived with me for two years and seldom did my dh or I have a problem with them (other than typical things that kids do). She has them on meds because of poor parenting.



locomom -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (8/21/2006 1:17:07 AM)

Generally, the parents I know try as hard as possible not to medicate their kids. Like me, when they feel they have reached the point of no better option, they agree to medicate. Most of us try our hardest to keep our kids off medication for as long as we can in case it harms their young bodies. I and other parents I know have described it as feeling cornered into that option by the circumstances. And most of us will pay for poorly insured or uninsured treatment if we can.

Jeff(aka Kardinal),
Your statement that parents take the easy way out with pills for their children definitely rubs me the wrong way. It's a common accusation that those of us whose kids require medication must deal with. I have met a number of people who wear the badge that says, "I don't need medication.," quite proudly as if their health is an achievement rather than a gift from God.
Also, while it would be great if informed consent worked the way it's supposed to and I knew all the info and questions to ask before choosing medication for my daughter, a doctor's office visit rarely makes that possible. It is not intentional by the doctor or his staff, but usually I can only listen to his/her recommendations, accept samples, and then leave. Their is no time allotted for processing the information for a while and having the doctor come back to answer questions in a half hour. A typical office schedule means that I can then go home, do my research, write down my questions, do more research, then call the doctor back if I have questions or concerns that need an immediate answer. Practically speaking, it's half gain knowledge as quickly as necessary and half learn as you go.

The reality in our family is that my now 18yo. daughter is on around 10 medications, which stinks. About half are allergy meds to keep her from long term sinus infections and any further antibiotic resistance, something we have learned to take very seriously. The other half are migraine medications, two of which are prophylactic and the rest are abortives to be used as needed. We're still trying to improve prophylaxis for the migraines. Not one of these choices were easy! What we wouldn't give to be able to reduce this load.



ChristinaBeana -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (8/21/2006 5:05:44 AM)

I used to nanny, and one of my charges was an eight-year-old boy. For some reason, his mom thought he was bi-polar, and wanted to put him on meds. I'm not a psychiatrist, but I do know several bi-polar people, and this kid did not seem bi-polar to me at all. His mood seemed pretty even to me, aside from the normal moodiness all children have. I thought his main problem was his diet- his mom had nothing but sugary, fatty foods in the house. A trip to the doctor confirmed what I thought- the doc said she didn't think he was bi-polar and she told his mom to cut back on the sugar. She still prescribed some sort of meds for him, but IMO, they just made him worse. It seemed like he was a lot sadder and meaner to his sister after taking them.

My youngest sister has ADHD. Truly. My mom tried putting her on Ritalin, but that made her depressed, so my mom took her off of it. When the school found out what my mom did, they made a big hoopla about it, but my mom just told them, "she's my daughter, and I don't want her on these meds that make her unhappy. Period." They backed off after that.

I'm not saying children shouldn't be put on meds. If they honestly, truly need it, then meds should be used. However, it should be only after eliminating the child's life-style (diet, lack of discipline, etc) as a culprit, and after other methods (i.e. counseling) have failed.

I was put on anti-depressants as a child. I think the original intent was to prevent migraines, and part of the meds just happened to have an anti-depressant effect. Or maybe my mom was putting on A-D's without telling me. I stopped taking the meds and then started having bouts with depression, so I went back on A-D's, struggling to find the right medicaton. I'm wondering if taking those pills at such an early age could have "influenced" my brain to become dependant on A-D's. I like the meds I take, they seem to work the best w/out horrible side effects, but if I could live my life without them, I gladly would.



Kardinal -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (8/21/2006 11:19:22 AM)

Locomom

Sorry to have rubbed you the wrong way, that was not my intention. My point being that as a counselor I often run into parents that come from an approach of, well ok the MD said do this, and then never research or ask questions on their own. In my practice I welcome the parents to ask lots of questions and do my best to answer the questions that they have not thought about already. I understand that constrains of an office practice. My intent was not to single out any particular parent, but the overall lazy people that just assume that specialists know best. I think people need to work to get the information about thier treatment, especially when it concerns thier children.

Jeff



womaninchrist -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (8/21/2006 1:18:46 PM)

In defense of Kardinal what I've seen quite a bit is a tendency to medicate - even overmedicate - because medication is simpler and/or cheaper. Sometimes it's the docs making this decision, sometimes it's the therapists, sometimes its patients (or their parents when the patient is a child), often the insurance company is involved in the decision making process and way too often people that should be outside observers get too much of a voice (like teachers).

Often it looks something like this. Patient has a mood problem, behavioral problem or an emotional problem. Problem could be something that would be treated at least partially by meds or involves something that's treated at least partially by meds. Someone in the decision making process votes for meds - and often keeps going till overmedication is reached - because that's simpler, easier (or what the insurance covers) when what the patient REALLY needs is at least partially some good therapy so that they can develop better coping skills, better discipline or learn how to better deal with events of the past.

For example, I'm not a child, but they'd typically much prefer to medicate the living daylights out of me because they've identified that I have bipolar, than to provide therapy for my PTSD that's actually caused me far more problems than the bipolar ever has. Overmedicating my bipolar might sedate me to the point of preventing the overreactions that come with my PTSD (actually it tends to prevent any reactions) but it's not treating the PTSD. Similarly, if a child has ADD/ADHD but his/her problems also involve ODD, all the ADD meds in the world aren't going to solve his/her behavioral issues. You've got to treat the whole person, and all their issues. Not just the ones you can throw pills at.



notmycity -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (8/31/2006 3:02:13 PM)

Here's an interesting site that talks about mixing in psychology and Christianity:

http://www.psychoheresy-aware.org



phosadaud -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (8/31/2006 3:09:39 PM)

I wasn't aware that God only cares about diseases and disorders if they don't affect the brain...... [&:]



Kardinal -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (8/31/2006 10:00:12 PM)

When I read those statements that psychology is heresy, I become very upset. I will maintain my restraint as best as I can, but I could argue and bring many differant points to bear upon this argument.

I know that this is a debate forum, and therefore we should all enjoy healthy debate. So I ask this simple question. If those that feel psychology/psychiatry is heresy, what would they do in the following situation.

A person begins to hear voices, and gradually those voices tell them to kill someone. Those voices become overwhelming. This person sees things, quits bathing and can't seem to be able to take care of themselves. They are in pain, and eventually they being to believe that by killing the person of thier fixation will make them feel better.



FoxInSox -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (8/31/2006 10:13:10 PM)

i'm a counseling student...

and a previous counseling client...

and an SSRI taker...

i wonder about what would happen to me if those options weren't abailable...i'm not sure, but i was already engaging in some pretty dangerous behavior, and sometimes death seemed a preferable option to IT (being that awful way i felt). i strongly suspect, however, that alcohol might have been an option. i do know that i would have found some way to make IT stop, whatever it took.

my counselor was a run-of-the-mill counselor, an LPC. she is, imo, brilliant. she is also a christian, but isnt a "christian counselor" per se. my faith played a HUGE role in my recovery. changing every aspect of my life played a part on recovery -- occupational, spiritual, physical, academic, familial...everything. every part of my life was snagged up in my anxiety; every part needed to change to find health.

stateofgrace hit the nail on the head. people sucked it up, lived what they could, but, WOW, the freedom that counseling and psychopharmocology can provide!

michelle



womaninchrist -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (9/1/2006 2:04:10 PM)

There are many flaws in the anti-psychiatry/anti-psychology argument.

1. Not all psych (whether psychiatry or psychology) is heretical, though certainly there is some that is inappropriate for Christians to pursue. What I see is a need for wisdom and discernment, not a need to blow off the whole field for the wrongs of a few. After all, not even all who claim to know Christ or to speak for/about Him really do so and the Bible even warns us about this. We should be using wisdom and discernment in everything.

2. If all psychiatry is anti-christian, why is it ok to seek medical care for other illnesses? It's really hypocritical to say it's ok to see a doctor whenever for whatever - as long as it's not for a problem with your brain.

3. Not all examples of ANY type of illness are going to be due to spiritual flaws, demonic possession, demonic oppression or unrepentant sin of the person with the illness. Illness exists in this world because sin does and many mental illnesses - along with many other illnesses - exist because of the sins of others, not the sins of the sufferer.

4. When a mentally ill individual has gone through the various hoops often prescribed by anti-psychiatry and anti-psychology people - a list which includes ever increasing amounts of Bible reading, prayer and fasting, admonishments to repent of assumed lists of sins (generally without proof of the existance of said sin in the sufferer's life - beyond an assumption being made on the basis of the existance of the illness), and sometimes even deliverance services or exorcisms - just what exactly would you have them do when they're still ill? Are we to assume lack of faith, prescribe more Bible reading, more prayer, more fasts, repentance of more assumed sins, more deliverance services or just write them off as beyond redemption?



Hischild1994 -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (9/2/2006 12:49:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: notmycity

Here's an interesting site that talks about mixing in psychology and Christianity:

http://www.psychoheresy-aware.org


You know, when I typed in bi-polar on that page, I couldn't find anything.



agapetos -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (9/2/2006 10:54:19 AM)

Did you do it without the hyphen? I typed in bipolar ~ didn't get many hits and there wasn't really much in what I read...



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