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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/9/2006 7:20:02 AM
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buckifn
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I wonder why the discussion ended here?
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/9/2006 11:54:36 AM
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Casaubon
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as far as I can see the bodies belong to each other. If a man can insist on 'using' his wife's body for sex, then a wife can 'use' her husbands body by insisting he diet, not drink, not eat fatty foods or whatever. Or insist that the body isn't used for sex perhaps. If your body belongs to your wife then surely she can decide not to use it for sex?
The truth is that the whole concept of insisting on sex is utterly unbiblical. If we are to love our wives as Christ loved the church, then we would prefer her needs over our own, including sexual needs. We are breaking the fundamental covenant of marriage if we do not honor her needs in this way.
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/11/2006 3:00:30 AM
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1mlasp
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Seems like a no-brainer to me. Marital rape = rape. Give the crime the same consequences.
Concerns expressed such as proving/disproving the attack,
men being considered guilty until proven innocent,
some women abusing the system with their false accusations (which comes back to hurt women in the long run as this undermines what has been put in place to protect them)
are totally valid though.
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/11/2006 6:44:35 AM
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buckifn
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interesting thoughts...but I don't consider it "using" her body if we are having sex. Why do you view it like that?
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/11/2006 9:44:14 AM
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Casaubon
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It is 'using' it if she doesn't want to have sex. Sex is about giving to the other person, not taking or fulfilling our desires. If she doesn't want it and you insist youi are just taking.
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/12/2006 3:03:41 AM
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Sc1t0r
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sekira
I am ashamed of you, Sc1t0r
Ok,
I come back to this thread tonight, and now I know why the women are talking about it, why I got comments about it, and why this undulating stir.
Let me get this straight!
I am in no way saying that rape is right. I was expressing what I thought about how the left-winged liberal anti-men people could abuse the idea of marital rape.
What I was saying about pinning a woman down (where I said "aggressive in order to pursuade her"), ahem, some women and/or men like that idea and enjoy those things and are doing it in mutual agreement.
I was trying to express that someone could take an act like that and accuse a man (or woman) of trying to rape when the truth is both of them agreed. I was thinking of evidence, like in a court.
Also, I had never given much thought to marital rape before this, and my gut reaction to it is that it was some new movement by the left wingers. I hate litigousness. I hate how everyone THESE days is trying to sue others, bear false witness, and claim money while shaming others and ruing thier lives.
I hope you guys, and ladies understand.
No, I am not showing two different personalities, this topic just got me riled up.
As I believe I've mentioned, I have a sister who was raped and a few other female friends. I'd think a baseball bat to the knees of the perpetrators would be sufficient.
So, if I am still misundertood, or if someone wants to jump on MY case about a misunderstanding. Go right ahead. I'll stand there and take it... judge me.
I needed to clear this up, now that I see why it got back to me like it did, like the game "telephone".
_____________________________
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Like the butterfly...
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/12/2006 3:45:53 AM
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buckifn
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have you ever done something for your wife, or someone else, that you really didn't want to do? but you did it anyhow because you love them.
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/12/2006 10:57:54 AM
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denbert
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-
Heck ya!
Hiya Tamara.
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The solution to a problem changes the problem
Denny
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/12/2006 2:19:33 PM
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1mlasp
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quote:
ORIGINAL: buckifn
have you ever done something for your wife, or someone else, that you really didn't want to do? but you did it anyhow because you love them.
You mean like accompanying her to that chick flick that you really don't want to see?
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/13/2006 2:24:47 AM
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Gluelin
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
you can find their thread HERE.
even before the term "marital rape" is defined, someone in the thread asserts rape is rape. "If he's forced her to have sex with her against her will, he's a rapist," one poster claims. If there's to be a punishment for forcing sex, then I think there ought to be a punishment for refusing sex in a marital relationship. As some here claim, women believe its worse to be sexually assualted than physically assualted, but many men feel it's worse to be sexually refused (emotionally abused) than physically assualted by their wives. So, should we therefore argue that sexual refusal should be a crime equal to compelling a wife to submit sexually?
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/13/2006 10:26:49 AM
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Casaubon
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That is a really horrid thought! If you love your wife you should prefer her desires over your anyway. Sex isn't a 'right' it is an act of love betwen two consenting people. Refusing you sex is not abuse at all - it is a weaker vessel asking for caring treatment.
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/13/2006 3:05:29 PM
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Gluelin
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Casaubon
That is a really horrid thought! If you love your wife you should prefer her desires over your anyway. Sex isn't a 'right' it is an act of love betwen two consenting people. Refusing you sex is not abuse at all - it is a weaker vessel asking for caring treatment.
If wife refuses sex, that should be her husband's desire also? Regularly refusing to "submit" to a husbands advances is abuse. My point is not that a husband has a right to force sex upon his wife: no husband does. My point is that when a husband sins, everyone jumps on the bandwagon of condemnation and talks about the appropriate "punishment", rather than, as women's discussions always do, try to understand the motivations and to show compassion. My point is, in the discussion of marital rape are we talking about assertiveness or physical force. The assumption is always the extreme.
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/13/2006 5:01:28 PM
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Casaubon
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If a wife doesn't want sex then yes, the husband should respect that. He is told to love his wife as Christ loved the Church and laid his life down for her. A husband should lay down his life, including his desires, for his wife. That is what the bible says. To insist on sex is always wrong - no exceptions - as it does not sure the due care and respect that is due a wife from her husband.
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/13/2006 7:25:05 PM
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1mlasp
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quote:
If wife refuses sex, that should be her husband's desire also?
The husband's desire should be to find out WHY. That is part of being loving which we have been called to do. If it is every so often that she is refusing, a reasonable man should have no problem with this. Maybe just cuddling or *gasp* talking is in order. It's fun and it tends to make the next "session" more special anyway.
quote:
Regularly refusing to "submit" to a husbands advances is abuse.
No, but it can be an indicator that there is something seriously wrong in the relationship that isn't being addressed...and it probably has nothing to do with sex. Maybe the wife has no further recourse with the husband and this is her last ditch effort to get his attention. Or maybe there is something wrong physically, whether a short or long term problem. This is bound to affect her emotionally too, maybe long after the physical symptoms are gone. Or maybe she really is a creep, you still don't victimize her. Men in this situation should talk and see what's going on. Women really aren't that scary to talk to.
quote:
My point is not that a husband has a right to force sex upon his wife: no husband does.
I am in 100% agreement with you here. And if it happens, it is still called rape.
quote:
My point is that when a husband sins, everyone jumps on the bandwagon of condemnation and talks about the appropriate "punishment", rather than, as women's discussions always do, try to understand the motivations and to show compassion.
That's because people are sticking to the topic: Punishment for marital rape. I agree that compassionately exploring why some men do these things is in order, as long as it is not done in a way that justifies this sin. Being a victim or in a horribly bad relationship where he may be even be totally right does not justify him victimizing anyone.
quote:
My point is, in the discussion of marital rape are we talking about assertiveness or physical force. The assumption is always the extreme. The issue is not assertiveness or physical aggression, but consent. You can have consensual rough sex (sorry mods) and it would not be rape. On the other hand, you can be so psychologically controlling and intimidating that she is coerced into sex. I'm not sure how the law looks at that one, but I would also consider that rape too.
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/16/2006 1:04:29 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gluelin
even before the term "marital rape" is defined, someone in the thread asserts rape is rape. "If he's forced her to have sex with her against her will, he's a rapist," one poster claims.
Back in the 70s when this first started being spoken about, the sr pastor of the church I attended said marital rape is an impossibility, a contradiction of terms. He said the only thing that made regular rape wrong was because it was extramarital sex, and whatever punishment they gave for a violent rapist should be the same for anyone involved in "consentual" sex as well. At that time, a single college kid, had no clue about any of that and just kind of filed it away.
If he looked at the only thing wrong with rape is the marital status of the perp and victim, I guess I see his point. However, after several years of marriage, I know well that there is much more than just marital status involved.
IMO, anyone forcing himself on a woman (regardless of their marital status) should undergo incremental castration & emasculation in 1/8" slices. No anesthesia.
quote:
If there's to be a punishment for forcing sex, then I think there ought to be a punishment for refusing sex in a marital relationship. As some here claim, women believe its worse to be sexually assualted than physically assualted, but many men feel it's worse to be sexually refused (emotionally abused) than physically assualted by their wives. So, should we therefore argue that sexual refusal should be a crime equal to compelling a wife to submit sexually? Absolutely not. They are in no way the same thing.
Be a man. You had to do without it before, back when you were single - remember? Now that your hormones are less, you can't go without????
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/16/2006 1:19:36 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1mlasp
quote:
If wife refuses sex, that should be her husband's desire also? The husband's desire should be to find out WHY. quote:
Regularly refusing to "submit" to a husbands advances is abuse. No, but it can be an indicator that there is something seriously wrong in the relationship that isn't being addressed...and it probably has nothing to do with sex.
Perhaps, or perhaps not. I will take the exact opposite stance of gluelin. I think there is nothing wrong whatsoever in wifely refusal.
Please do not quote 1 Cor 7 at me; I am well aware of that passage that says not to refuse one another. For a husband to quote that to his wife in order to get her to "submit" to his lust is like trying to force the issue with wives submitting in general to husbands according to Ephesians or 1 Peter. Submission cannot be forced, period.
How about your pastor coming to you and saying you have to "submit" and obey everything he says based on Hebrews 13? It carries the same weight.
Whether it always signifies a problem in the marriage is debatable, and perhaps dependant on what you call a marital problem. It certainly CAN indicate something. Or it can be nothing.
If your wife had the idea that sex is only for procreation and nothing else, every other instance is sinful and judged by God, if you talk her into sex, you are causing her to SIN!! Paul says that anything not of faith is sin. If she does not think it is right, it is sin to her because it is not from faith.
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/16/2006 2:15:34 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
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My position is that men who rape women ought to go to jail, whether they're married to the victim or not. If the frequency isn't good enough for you, learn to deal. I can't believe anyone would support anything else. Talk to the men at CW who are 30 or 40 years old and not married, they deal, so can you.
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/17/2006 7:16:17 AM
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Gluelin
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quote:
IMO, anyone forcing himself on a woman (regardless of their marital status) should undergo incremental castration & emasculation in 1/8" slices. No anesthesia.
The implication of the OP is that “marital rape” differs somehow from “non-marital rape.” Otherwise, why ask the question in the context of marital rape? I think most agree that the TV crime drama type of rape deserves severe punishment, but clearly the assumption in the OP must imply more a lack of consent rather than physical violence.
quote:
Be a man. You had to do without it before, back when you were single - remember? Now that your hormones are less, you can't go without????
This kind of thinking bothers me because the idea is that a man, in this case, a man who is a husband, should be satisfied with a sexless marriage if his wife, for whatever reason, refuses intimacy. Pray tell, how does doing without sex in a marriage make someone a man? A primary benefit most men anticipate when they get married is that they will no longer have to do without. I fail to understand how repressing one’s masculine sexuality makes him a man.
quote:
Please do not quote 1 Cor 7 at me; I am well aware of that passage that says not to refuse one another. For a husband to quote that to his wife in order to get her to "submit" to his lust is like trying to force the issue with wives submitting in general to husbands according to Ephesians or 1 Peter. Submission cannot be forced, period.
What bothers me about this statement is that the implication is clearly that a husband who has a sexual desire for his wife suffers from “lust”. So now, if a man sexually desires a woman other that his wife, that’s lust. And if he sexually desires his wife, that’s lust. Who than can he sexually desire?
Perhaps submission cannot be forced, but submission by its very nature involves yielding or surrenduring to what someone else desires. Otherwise, it's not submission. A wife who refuses her husband is not submitting, she's refusing.
quote:
I will take the exact opposite stance of gluelin. I think there is nothing wrong whatsoever in wifely refusal.
There are countless articles about the “headship” of the husband in the home. Men are told over and over that they are to be the leaders, the protectors, etc. If such a “headship” exists, then there must be a structure or framework over which the husband “heads”. Otherwise there’s no need for headship. And those under the headship have some responsibility to support and respect the head.
If a parent directs a child to do something, the child must comply. Otherwise, there will be consequences. It’s not reasonable for the child to argue that since he never consented to the request there should be no consequences. If a boss orders an employee to perform a certain task, can employee refuse to consent. Sure, but there will be consequences. If God instructs us to do something, can we refuse to consent? Sure, but there will be consequences. So, why then, if husbands are head of the household, is there “nothing wrong whatsoever in wifely refusal?” If wife falls under her husband’s headship, she may refuse consent, but there is something wrong with it and there will be consequences. At the very minimum, those consequences will include a deterioration of the marriage.
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/17/2006 7:41:11 AM
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DaveW
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Part of a man is being able to make do without what ever.
It is playing football on a broken leg. It is surviving in the wilderness with nothing but your own 2 hands. It is taking what ever challenge life throws at you and facing it head-on. I don't see how this is any different.
Submission is a choice on the part of the one submitting, NOT the one being submitted to. That is "lording it over them" which Christ specifically commanded against.
Please note that I did not say violating the command of 1 Cor 7 is not sinful. It is, but that is between the woman and God. It is not our jobs as husbands to try to enforce that. In my experience, my trying to enforce 1 Cor 7 took things the other direction. Prayer and believing God started turning things around.
Do you have faith? Then let God's Holy Spirit convict her of where she is wrong. He can do a much better job of it than we can.
Please note that where I said "...nothing whatsoever wrong with..." I meant from OUR point, not the wife's point. We should be able to go with it without falling into disobedience ourselves.
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/17/2006 8:13:32 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
original TequilaMockingbird:
I'm very late on this thread, I just stumbled onto it from another thread: The "He Says" Response Thread which led me to the Punishment for marital rape thread in the Men Only Forum.
So many posts, so little time to read them, but I got a gist from the guys what they thought of marital rape and overall I was rather disturbed. They were bothering too much with "gray areas". How is a husband physically forcing his wife to have sex a gray area? And to throw in the Bible to prove that husbands can't really rape their wives because they are considered one person is sick.
Makes me wonder about all the Christian men out there.
========================================
Men don't know what it's like to be the weaker sex, to have stronger, physically overpowering individuals staring at their various body parts making them wonder if their life is in danger. To hope and pray that while they're traveling late at night no monstrous thug will overpower them and do or try to do things to them. They don't have a fear stuck in the back of their head of the possibility of being sexually assaulted the way it's ingrained in women. It's not something you can adequately explain. And to see the word "rape" so casually thrown around scares me.
Having to ask what rape in marriage is, makes me wonder. If it's rape outside the marriage, it's rape within the marriage. If a husband punching his wife sends him to jail, then so should rape.
Brothers, is this the way we want our sisters to see us? I don't think so. As men of God, we should be protecting our women, making them feel safe; and not adding to their fears.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/17/2006 9:48:41 AM
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vajent
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Trying to introduce a bunch of caveats into the discussion only obscures the basic issue that rape is rape. Rapists of all varieties can (and do) employ a myriad of excuses and rationales to justify why they did what they did. Everybody has reasons for what they do; big deal. Adam, Eve, Saul, and a whole host of others had their reasons for defying the word of the Lord; but it didn't make much difference did it. Is there a legitimate reason for rape? No Christian should answer 'yes' to that question. Is marital rape fundamentally different than date rape, or random rape? No. If a man physically forces an unwilling woman to have sex, the larger construct within which this act takes place does not alter the violent, controlling, abusive, humiliating, and illegal nature of the act. The fact that there are some women who falsely accuse men of rape doesn't change this. The fact that some wives withhold sex from their husbands for unbiblical reasons doesn't change this. The response to such caveats is never to use violence against a spouse. The definition of 'rape' doesn't somehow change just because we're now talking about the act within the construct of marriage. As a moderate complementarian, I am sensitive to the 'submission' issue. But headship is not a license for sinful behavior, and submission is not a forcible act, particularly when submission is forced through a vile and sinful act. Anyone who thinks the headship/submission dynamic of marriage makes rape within marriage anything other than sinful simply doesn't understand biblical headship or submission. Husbands are called to be submissive to the headship of Christ in his whole life, including his marriage. The idea that a husband could fulfill his submissive responsibilities by raping his bride is outrageous. The idea that a husband could honor God in his marriage by abusing the woman God has given to him is unthinkable. The idea that a husband could most fully express his status as an image of God by raping a fellow image-bearer is ludicrous.
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http://jasonffoster.blogspot.com
Whatever the heart most desires, the mind justifies, and the will chooses.
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/17/2006 11:47:25 AM
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GregandJenny
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I have a question relating to this and I am not sure where to post it. What evidence would have to be in play to convict a husband of marital rape?
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/17/2006 12:33:06 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
I have a question relating to this and I am not sure where to post it. What evidence would have to be in play to convict a husband of marital rape?
Since laws vary from state to state, that would be a good question for your local or state police dept.
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Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/17/2006 1:11:06 PM
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GregandJenny
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DaveW what would you say?
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RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/17/2006 2:26:36 PM
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DaveW
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I wish I could properly answer that question, but I can't.
Is/was this a one time event or something on-going? If it is one time, you get into a he said she said quandry. If it is on-going, you may wish to secretly record the incident.
Sex is fairly easy to prove if checked by medical personell in a fairly short time. Violence/force is also provable if checked within a certain time limit. (your dr should be able to give you a time range on these tests) Intent is never easy to prove one way or the other. That is where the recording comes in.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
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