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Catholic Documents Examined - 7/3/2006 1:12:05 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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There are some people who claim Vatican II has created some contradictions with historic Catholic teachings.
The purpose of this thread is to examine the possible contradictions surrounding Vatican II and other Catholic documents.
< Message edited by Fritzpw_Admin -- 7/6/2006 9:57:41 AM >
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/3/2006 2:02:37 PM
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WesP
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The foremost contention that I have with Vatican II is in the NOSTRA AETATE. There is a wrongful attempt to equate our Lord God Almighty with the deity of other religions.
quote:
3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them! 
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/3/2006 7:12:37 PM
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bridgefin
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From: Boca Raton, FL
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Wes,
The diety of Islam is the God of Abram who is the Lord God Almighty. Those are facts. Where is the problem?
In Christ, George
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/4/2006 4:39:28 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bridgefin
Wes,
The diety of Islam is the God of Abram who is the Lord God Almighty. Those are facts. Where is the problem?
In Christ, George
Come on George. The Muslims don't worship the God of the Bible. They worship a god who is the figment of Mohammed's imagination.
"4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough." (2 Cor 12)
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/4/2006 5:12:58 PM
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JOHN6_54
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Actually, the only thing wrong with the documents of Vatican II is what we have done with them, not the documents themselves. Hopefully someday the pendulum will reach an equilibrium and stay there for more than one generation. I am currently finishing up a couple of Dr. Scott Hahn's books, but after that I plan to spend some time investigating all 16 documents from Vatican II. I simply wouldn’t feel right criticizing them until I've at least read them myself.
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/4/2006 5:33:14 PM
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ukfan
Posts: 354
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bridgefin
Wes,
The diety of Islam is the God of Abram who is the Lord God Almighty. Those are facts. Where is the problem?
In Christ, George
I think most non-Catholic Christians think that if people of another religion do not worship the fullness of the revealed God (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) that they must have a different God all together.
I feel it is simply semantics. Catholics and Vatican II acknowledge that Muslims do not worship the fullness of God or obey in the manner He asks but to refuse to recognise the roots of their God go back to Abraham is just wrong. Yes, the Muslim idea of God has perverted with time but the core being is the God of Abraham.
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/4/2006 9:02:54 PM
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WesP
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quote:
I feel it is simply semantics. Catholics and Vatican II acknowledge that Muslims do not worship the fullness of God or obey in the manner He asks but to refuse to recognise the roots of their God go back to Abraham is just wrong. Yes, the Muslim idea of God has perverted with time but the core being is the God of Abraham.
God is perfect. He is without sin, merciful, faithful, truthful, etc. If any of those attributes of God have been changed, then the god in question is no longer God. If they have perverted over time, how is our God still their God. I think the day Muhammed uttered the first word that he claimed was divine there was perversion of doctrine. The Muslims can say theirs is the god of Abram, but that is wrong. Our God is not in the Koran; read it. I can claim a different god that I define and say he is the god of Abram, but that does not make it so!
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them!
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/5/2006 12:23:32 PM
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figmentPez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
Oh, and btw, the god of the mormons goes back to Abraham and further.
The "god" of the mormons is a fiction, a completely made up entity. How can such a nothing actually go back to Abraham?
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/5/2006 1:36:57 PM
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WesP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
Oh, and btw, the god of the mormons goes back to Abraham and further.
The "god" of the mormons is a fiction, a completely made up entity. How can such a nothing actually go back to Abraham?
That is kinda my point. The LDS, JW, and Muslims all claim belief in God. The NOSTRA AETATE presented by Vatican II equates the Muslim god with our God, and that is not true. By the same token, the LDS also twisted our God to be a false god. JW did the same thing. My point was that all 3 of these religions started with God of Abram and warped into some fallacy born of satan. While it is true that the god of the mormons is made up, so is the god that these other religions espouse.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them!
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/5/2006 1:58:30 PM
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GoodME_II
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You are likely to find a notable absence of we Catholic posters in this thread, in my opinion. Especially if this gets as silly as I am betting it is going to get.
In order to understand the position of "lack of conflict", one would have to understand the historical and temporal context of the statements examined, have a decent and practical command of Latin and have a grasp on the history and the settings that motivated some of what will be presented here.
It is with great irony that I see the sudden importance of examining extra-Scriptural documentation on a site where so many claim "Sola Scriptura". Is this now an endorsement by this site that "Sola Scriptura" is fundementally flawed and in error? That indeed the complete deposit of Faith is not only Scriptures but the entire deposit of tradition, history and context that is the Magisterium?
I claim victory here, then. My work here is a success, if this is the case.
As far as I am concerned, there is no one qualified to discuss this here - or moderate it.
Just a humble opinion from a long-time participant on this site and its predecessor.
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"For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every foul practice. But the wisdom from above is...peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of...good fruits...And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for those who cultivate peace"
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/5/2006 2:03:58 PM
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GoodME_II
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
The NOSTRA AETATE presented by Vatican II equates the Muslim god with our God, and that is not true.
This is a strawman, with a "self-magisterium" kicker.
It is the type of thing that this is going to turn into....
Let's start with some homework. What does "Nostra Aetate" mean, and why do we refer to this document by this title?
_____________________________
"For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every foul practice. But the wisdom from above is...peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of...good fruits...And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for those who cultivate peace"
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/5/2006 2:04:15 PM
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Ps103
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quote:
As far as I am concerned, there is no one qualified to discuss this here - or moderate it.
Heaven knows I can't....
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/5/2006 2:15:41 PM
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GoodME_II
Posts: 364
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
The foremost contention that I have with Vatican II is in the NOSTRA AETATE. There is a wrongful attempt to equate our Lord God Almighty with the deity of other religions.
If there is but one God, and that one God is acknowledged by a person - is that a start towards the revelation of Christian Faith towards that person? By God?
Or - is the completeness and fullness of the total Christian Faith zapped immediately into our brains, before we are worshipping "the one true God"?
Is it not true that the coming to Faith is a path, and the first steps on that path might be the acknowledgment of one true God? And if a Muslim acknowledges one true singular all-powerful God, that he is acknowledging THE one true singular all-powerful God?
Or, because he is acknowledging this presence with a beard on his face and a covered head, that somehow his acknowledgement is tainted and flawed by that beard and head covering?
Doesn't this limit the sovereignty of God? Are you not saying that God cannot reach the Muslim, because God's arms aren't long enough?
_____________________________
"For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every foul practice. But the wisdom from above is...peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of...good fruits...And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for those who cultivate peace"
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/5/2006 4:02:08 PM
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WesP
Posts: 2451
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quote:
And if a Muslim acknowledges one true singular all-powerful God, that he is acknowledging THE one true singular all-powerful God?
Or, because he is acknowledging this presence with a beard on his face and a covered head, that somehow his acknowledgement is tainted and flawed by that beard and head covering?
Doesn't this limit the sovereignty of God? Are you not saying that God cannot reach the Muslim, because God's arms aren't long enough?
First question: answer is no. See above posts.
Second question: changing my argument into a physical description does not address anything I stated. See above posts.
Third question: answer is no. There are 2 gods referenced: God and their god.
Fourth question: where did I say that it was impossible for a Muslim to become a Christian? Where did I limit God? You accuse me of strawman argumentation, ignorance, etc., but you completely ignore what I posted.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them!
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/6/2006 7:10:01 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4110
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bridgefin
Wes,
The diety of Islam is the God of Abram who is the Lord God Almighty. Those are facts. Where is the problem? Actually the so called diety of islam is the moon god from pre-mohammed arabic polytheism. Hence the crecent moon symbol in most things islamic.
That is NOT the God of the bible. Period.
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/6/2006 8:55:45 AM
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GoodME_II
Posts: 364
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
quote:
And if a Muslim acknowledges one true singular all-powerful God, that he is acknowledging THE one true singular all-powerful God?/quote]
First question: answer is no.
Let's say that you meet a stranger on the street. He asks if you believe in God. You say - yes.
If you then ask him if he believes in God - and he says yes, do you then follow with twenty questions - just to make sure that he is professing believe in the God, who's scope is limited by your 20 questions?
God is God. And He has no bounds. Let's start there.
If I ask a stranger if they are a person of Faith, I am getting at ANY Faith; that for me is a starting point. The next questions might have to do with understanding their Faith relative to mine. If the answer is "great god of the sky", my next question will have to do with scope - what is the nature of this god that limits his sovereignty to the sky? One can lead a person to God - by questioning "god".
We are talking about tolerance here, not correctness. There's a difference. The Catholic Church is stating a tolerance for other Faiths (hey, we've been tolerating Protestants for 500 years now) - not espousing their validity or correctness.
_____________________________
"For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every foul practice. But the wisdom from above is...peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of...good fruits...And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for those who cultivate peace"
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/6/2006 8:57:59 AM
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GoodME_II
Posts: 364
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
Do you claim the excerpt I used is invalid? It came from a Catholic website. It is in English. You think Latin cannot be translated into English? How about Greek and Hebrew?
You have posted the quote - and then supplied your own meaning.
On what authority do you presume to know more than the people who wrote the material you are citing?
_____________________________
"For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every foul practice. But the wisdom from above is...peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of...good fruits...And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for those who cultivate peace"
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/6/2006 9:11:19 AM
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GoodME_II
Posts: 364
Joined: 12/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
The foremost contention that I have with Vatican II is in the NOSTRA AETATE. There is a wrongful attempt to equate our Lord God Almighty with the deity of other religions.
quote:
3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
Getting back to this. What is it that you have a problem with again? Does Islam adore one God, merciful and all powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth? Or does it not?
What of the above statement is not correct? You said that the statement equates the Islamic God and the Christian God. What makes you think that they are not the same thing?
How is Islam not unlike Judaism - a God-centered Faith that does not acknowledge Jesus? In my mind, this makes Islam different than - Budhism, for example.
_____________________________
"For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every foul practice. But the wisdom from above is...peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of...good fruits...And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for those who cultivate peace"
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RE: Catholic Documents Examined - 7/6/2006 12:54:40 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2078
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME_II
Getting back to this. What is it that you have a problem with again? Does Islam adore one God, merciful and all powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth? Or does it not?
It does not. The "god" of Islam is not the creator of heaven and earth. They may believe it to be that, but their idol created nothing.
quote:
How is Islam not unlike Judaism - a God-centered Faith that does not acknowledge Jesus? In my mind, this makes Islam different than - Budhism, for example.
A "God-centered Faith that does not acknowledge Jesus" is a contradiction in terms. Those who deny the Son deny the Father as well. Judaism that denys Jesus Christ is not the Judaism that God started, it is a perversion that is following after idols. No one knows the Father except the Son, and those the Son reveals Him to. If someone does not worship Jesus Christ, they do not worship the Father and they do not worship the one and only God.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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