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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 7/11/2006 4:59:14 AM
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dbark
Posts: 113
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From: Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tacitus
This is solid research that has been confirmed to be true. It's just basic statistics--the more older brothers you have, the greater your chance of being gay.
In fact, if the cause is biological as the study suggests, then there maybe something that can be done by mothers during pregnancy that reduces those chances. One theory proposes that some kind of hormonal battle is caused between the female mother and the male fetus, and each time the mother carries a boy, the battle gets fiercer and more likely to affect the fetus's sexual identity. What if simply taking the right hormone supplements at the right time during the first weeks of pregnancy dramatically reduced the number of homosexuals being born? Would you not applaud that outcome? (Of course, it would be highly controversial, but I doubt many in the fundamentalist community would refuse the treatment).
quote:
WASHINGTON — Having several older brothers increases the likelihood of a man being gay, a finding researchers say adds weight to the idea that there is a biological basis for sexual orientation.
I really don't see how that finding adds any weight to the idea that homosexuality is genetic or has biological basis at all. The old nurture vs. nature argument is by no means settled by that finding - maybe boys with older brothers grow up disliking males because they got picked on by their brothers, or maybe they feel inferior to their older, more masculine brothers and therefore identify better with females or a myriad of different nurture scenarios/arguments.
The only way I can see making the leap that that particular finding lends support to the nature argument is having a bent that presupposes it.
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 7/11/2006 7:28:29 AM
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henny
Posts: 1257
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From: MN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dbark
The old nurture vs. nature argument is by no means settled by that finding - maybe boys with older brothers grow up disliking males because they got picked on by their brothers, or maybe they feel inferior to their older, more masculine brothers and therefore identify better with females or a myriad of different nurture scenarios/arguments.
The study did test for nurture, though. They compared "biological" brothers to "non-biological" brothers (i.e. step brothers, adopted) and found that the statistic only holds up amongst biological brothers (regardless of even whether or not they were raised together). This by no means settles the nature vs nurture argument, but it does suggest that there might be something biological at play:
quote:
Bogaert studied four groups of Canadian men, a total of 944 people, analyzing the number of brothers and sisters each had, whether or not they lived with those siblings and whether the siblings were related by blood or adopted.
[SNIP]
Bogaert said he concluded the effect was biological by comparing men with biological brothers to those with brothers to whom they were not biologically related.
The increase in the likelihood of being gay was seen only in those whose brothers had the same mothers, whether they were raised together or not, he said.
Men raised with several older step- or adopted brothers do not have an increased chance of being gay.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200978,00.html
_____________________________
Many Bothans died to bring you this information.
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[Deleted] - 7/11/2006 1:30:46 PM
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 7/11/2006 1:39:35 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7384
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quote:
Homosexuality is biological IMO. Here's a better question. I'd like to see the ORIGINAL scripture and see if the word homosexual is in there. That's the only thing will settle it for me. I have a Catholic Bible....very traditional translation and homosexual is in there. I'm not sure that Paul, John, Luke, or anybody else back then used that term.
Whether or not a particular term is used, homosexual behavior is specifically referenced in both the Old and New Testaments; it's not like the behavior was invented recently.
quote:
Until then I have to believe that God has enough room in His pantheon of wisdom for everyone, especially when I think homosexuality is biological so that means that God is creating people this way. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right, but I'd like to know what the greek word that is translated into homosexual. That would clear up alot for me.
Simply because something is 'biological' doesn't mean God is "creating people this way"; spina bifida is biological, and God allows it to occur, but we don't just accept it as a normal human condition; it is a defect.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 7/12/2006 10:51:14 PM
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Storm-Over-Krynn
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Well did i also read somewhere that during Late Antiquinty and the Dark ages that people also believed that the world was flat and that time no one even heard of the new worlde(america). so i think that the bible was from a less enligtened time,they didn't even have science or technology back then to explain stuff like the plague because with the plague they thought it was punishment from God,they didn't know it was caused by rats, same thing with HIV/AIDS because people thought it was punishment from God but new evidence states that it actually started in monkeys.
_____________________________
"Hear the sage as his song descends
like heaven's rain or tears,
and washes the years, the dust of many stories
from the High Tale of the Dragonlance." michael williams.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 7/12/2006 11:14:30 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7384
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quote:
Well did i also read somewhere that during Late Antiquinty and the Dark ages that people also believed that the world was flat and that time no one even heard of the new worlde(america). so i think that the bible was from a less enligtened time,they didn't even have science or technology back then to explain stuff like the plague because with the plague they thought it was punishment from God,they didn't know it was caused by rats, same thing with HIV/AIDS because people thought it was punishment from God but new evidence states that it actually started in monkeys.
So your point is, "The Bible is old, so it's wrong"?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 7/12/2006 11:55:30 PM
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Storm-Over-Krynn
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quote:
So your point is, "The Bible is old, so it's wrong"?
Well doesn't Lev.24-25 say that you can own slaves both male & female provided they are from the neighboring nations. and don't parts of the bible have Dragons in it like Daniel and the dragon and the dragon of Rev.
_____________________________
"Hear the sage as his song descends
like heaven's rain or tears,
and washes the years, the dust of many stories
from the High Tale of the Dragonlance." michael williams.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 7/12/2006 11:59:10 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7384
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Well doesn't Lev.24-25 say that you can own slaves both male & female provided they are from the neighboring nations. and don't parts of the bible have Dragons in it like Daniel and the dragon and the dragon of Rev.
Yes the Bible told Isrealites how to treat slaves - but there was no dragon in Daniel, and the 'dragon' in of Rev. is symbolic (as is most of Revelation); nonetheless, this doesn't tell us why the Bible would be wrong on homosexuality.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 7/13/2006 12:07:54 AM
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Storm-Over-Krynn
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Well the book of mormon has something calling Black people sinners (no i'm not kidding it's indexed under "skin") so why don't we start calling black people sinners because the mormon bible says so and what about Jehovah witnesses because they are against blood transfussons,so should we start outlawing blood transfusions because jehovahs witnesses are against it, what about banning tv,cars and stuff because most religions are against them, And i read somewhere that Islam teaches muslims to kill people and to enforce islam on the world. Because i call that hypocrisy to follow one part of the bible but not the rest.
_____________________________
"Hear the sage as his song descends
like heaven's rain or tears,
and washes the years, the dust of many stories
from the High Tale of the Dragonlance." michael williams.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 7/13/2006 12:16:32 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7384
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Well the book of mormon has something calling Black people sinners (no i'm not kidding it's indexed under "skin") so why don't we start calling black people sinners because the mormon bible says so and what about Jehovah witnesses because they are against blood transfussons,so should we start outlawing blood transfusions because jehovahs witnesses are against it, what about banning tv,cars and stuff because most religions are against them. because i call that hypocrisy to follow one part of the bible but not the rest .
Um, no, you are conflating three different beliefs and the texts for those beliefs; the book of Mormon and the Watchtower can be wrong, and the Bible correct; you can't just conflate them at will - the other texts are other texts, not the 'rest of the Bible'.
If one is a Christian, then what Scripture says about homosexuality matters.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 7/13/2006 1:05:37 AM
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Storm-Over-Krynn
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Dear Christian,
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?
i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.
Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
_____________________________
"Hear the sage as his song descends
like heaven's rain or tears,
and washes the years, the dust of many stories
from the High Tale of the Dragonlance." michael williams.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 7/13/2006 1:45:47 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7384
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Your post is a red-herring; the Bible is clear and specific in both testaments and previous to the establishment of the law of Israel what is to be the proper practice of human sexuality - and it is consistently clear, as it is on issue any one might want to discuss; homosexual behavior, that is sex between two people of the same gender, is wrong. So while you might rightly argue that a particular Levitical proscription no longer applies, you would be very wrong to argue that this applies in any way to God's directives concerning homosexuality.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 7/13/2006 1:49:04 AM
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Storm-Over-Krynn
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Can we kill people on the sabbath? yes or no?
_____________________________
"Hear the sage as his song descends
like heaven's rain or tears,
and washes the years, the dust of many stories
from the High Tale of the Dragonlance." michael williams.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 7/13/2006 1:58:49 AM
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veggi.tales
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For Christians to express their disapproval of "gays" based on a handful of verses is one thing, but its relative importance should be placed within the context of Christ's words and ministry as portrayed in the Gospels.
The Greatest Commandment, parables, miracles, prayers and instructions to His disciples all stress compassion for sinners, our responsibilities to the disadvantaged and a refrain from rushing to judgment.
Jesus' strongest criticisms were not directed toward the obvious sinners such as taxcollectors, prostitutes, thieves (on the Cross) or homosexuals (not directly mentioned) that the world would be first to renounce, but for the chief priests, teachers of the law, Pharases and those in positions of authority.
Knowledge of the Law and reciting long lists of Bible verses did not bring them any closer to an understanding the true meaning of Christianity.
The 7 Woes and the overturning of tables in the synagogue were in response to those who misrepresent God's word and who continue to put obstacles in the way of common sinners in their attempts to be reunited in Christ.
Although the cast of characters has changed over 2 000 years, society and man's basic nature haven't. Chief priests, teachers of the law and Pharisees are all still alive and well and flourishing - but under different titles.
Unfortunately for many Christians, this process has gone on unrecognized, and these imposters continue to exert the same control over the Christian Church as they did during the life of Christ. Realistically, why would we expect any difference?
Thus the Church's stand against homosexuality is a secondary issue at best - the real threat is to heed the warnings of the 7 Woes and realize that Christianity is continually at risk of reinventing itself in Man's image and becoming an entity that would attempt to recrucify Christ on His return.
< Message edited by veggi.tales -- 7/13/2006 2:12:09 AM >
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Proof that fundamentalists selectively quote the Bible: - 7/13/2006 1:59:32 AM
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Storm-Over-Krynn
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"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." (Leviticus 18:22)
and . . .
"If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13)
"For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)
Imagine what would happen today if we killed every child who was disrespectful to his parents. Fundamentalists explain this verse away, saying that it is part of the Old Levitical Holiness Code and is not meant to be taken literally.
But the above verse is just a mere 3 verses before Leviticus 20:13, one of their favorite anti-gay scriptures which, of course, they do choose to apply literally.
It's just incredible, isn't it?
Fundamentalists change their entire methodology of scriptural interpretation when it suits their purpose, even when dealing with verses that are a just couple of sentences away from each other!
"If a man lies with a woman during her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has discovered her flow, and she has uncovered the flow of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from her people." (Leviticus 20:18)
Imagine what would happen today if we deported every man and woman who had ever had sex together while the woman was having her period. Fundamentalists decline the opportunity to take this verse literally, which is merely 5 verses after Leviticus 20:13.
"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property." (Leviticus 25:44-45)
Did you ever wonder where racist, uneducated people in the 19th century got the idea that slaves were just property and not people? Directly from the above verse, which fundamentalists do not, of course, take literally.
"Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." (Leviticus 19:27)
"Bible-believing" fundamentalists never preach against the evils of shaving, as they do not take this verse literally for our day. Of course, they most certainly would do so if they had a personal bias against shaving, but apparently, they do not.
"...and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you." (Leviticus 11:7)
As you can see, the book of Leviticus also prohibits the eating of pork (a swine is a pig). Of course, fundamentalists do not choose to use this verse to preach against eating pork. Sadly, however, they have no problem abusing the Bible to condemn gay and lesbian people. Remember, it's about their personal prejudice against gay people, not about a true desire to understand what the Bible actually says.
"...do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear material woven of two kinds of material." (Leviticus 19:19)
Farmers in this country almost always grow more than one kind of crop in their fields. In fact, they often must do so for ecological reasons. Fundamentalists do not apply this verse literally. If they were to preach against farmers, there would be an uproar, and rightfully so.
Fundamentalists also ignore the Biblical command to not wear clothes that have two different kinds of material. The shirts that many fundamentalists are often seen wearing must be a cotton/polyester blend, the most common in the United States of America. They may be "Bible believing" Christians, but this is yet another verse that they don't believe should be applied to today.
An "abomination?"
Fundamentalists also like to use Leviticus 18:22 to justify their anti-gay prejudice. That verse says, "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." Perhaps you have heard some people refer to gay people as an "abomination." They get the idea directly from Leviticus 18:22. But did you know...
The Bible says that eating shrimp and lobster is an abomination:
"But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:10)
"They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination." (Leviticus 11:11)
"Whatever in the water does not have fins or scales; that shall be an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:12)
"Women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says." (1 Corinthians 14:34)
This verse says that women can't speak in church. Period. It is completely ignored today. Applying this verse to the modern day church would be ancient, absurd and nonsensical.
When it comes to the verses about homosexuality, however, fundamentalists suddenly insist that they must be interpreted literally, word for word!
When it comes to this verse, however, they admit the facts. They acknowledge that it was only meant for that day. The truth is that the Apostle Paul wrote this verse because, during his time, women and men sat on opposite sides of the church aisle. Women would yell questions across the aisle to their husbands, causing a disruption of the service.
It would be all too easy for a fundamentalist who disliked women to use this verse to exclude women from participating in the service, just as fundamentalists who dislike gay people currently misuse those seemingly anti-gay scriptures to exclude people who are gay.
Realizing that a particular scripture was only relevant for its time (and should not be applied literally to our modern day) is an interpretational option that is conveniently ignored when it comes to the verses which discuss homosexuality.
"Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her as a covering." (1 Corinthians 11:13-15)
Upon visiting any fundamentalist church, you will discover that more than a few women have short haircuts. This verse, however, indicates that women should have long hair, as their "head must be covered."
It has a familiar ring to it, doesn't it? Arab fundamentalists require women to put a veil over their heads and punish them if they do not. The fact of the matter is that the length of your hair has nothing to do with your spiritual condition.
"If any man takes a wife, and goes in on her, and detests her, and charges her with shameful conduct, and brings a bad name on her, and says, 'I took this woman, and when I came to her I found she was not a virgin..." (Deuteronomy 22:13,14)
"But if ... evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones..." (Deuteronomy 22:20,21)
If a man discovers that a woman is not a virgin on her wedding night, all the men in town can murder her by flinging stones at her young female body as she screams in pain.
Is this the word of God? Hardly.
The command to stone to death a young girl who is not proven to be a virgin on her wedding night is simply an ugly man-made rule of murder that found its way into the Biblical text.
WHY are fundamentalists so afraid to admit the obvious, that such verses like the one listed above are simply not the Word of God? How mature is one's faith if one cannot even admit that a verse which commands that young girls be stoned to death isn't the Word of God?
Here are the facts . . .
The belief in Biblical times was that if a woman was indeed a virgin, she would bleed on her wedding night because her first sexual intercourse would result in the breaking of the hymen, the thin tissue that covers the vagina. This blood was considered the "evidence" of her virginity that the scripture speaks of.
Medical science has since discovered that the hymen is often already broken in many young girls because of their participation in athletic sports and things like horseback riding. Quite tragically, this indicates that many girls who actually were virgins on their wedding night were nonetheless stoned to death because they were ignorant of this scientific fact. Little did many young girls in Biblical times know that their wedding nights would end in their own murder.
"If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched." (Mark 9:43)
While fundamentalists insist (due to their pre-existing bigotry) that all seemingly anti-gay scriptures be taken literally, without exception, they admit that the above verse was not meant to be taken literally even though the words above were spoken by Jesus Himself.
This proves that fundamentalists are willing to say that certain scriptures weren't meant to be believed literally, even those which contain the actual words of Jesus Christ!
"One of illegitimate birth shall not enter the congregation of the Lord." (Deuteronomy 23:2)
If you were born to an unwed mother, the Bible says that you shouldn't be allowed in church. Do "Bible-believing" fundamentalists follow this rule? Nope. They acknowledge that this verse was meant for a different time.
Yes, even fundamentalists acknowledge that certain scriptures were only meant to be applied to the particular time and place in which they were written.
When it comes to those scripture verses which seem to speak against homosexuality, however, they suddenly and indignantly demand that every word be followed to the letter and applied to our modern day!
The idea of refusing membership in the church to a child born to an unwed mother is seen as being unreasonable today, even though the scripture instructs it. The idea of quoting scripture to abuse people who are gay and lesbian is just as unreasonable and antiquated.
"Slaves, obey your human masters with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ." (Ephesians 6:5)
"Slaves, obey your human masters in everything; don't work only while being watched, in order to please men, but work wholeheartedly, fearing the Lord." (Colossians 3:22)
"Slaves are to be submissive to their masters in everything, and to be well-pleasing, not talking back ." (Titus 2:9)
"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel. " (1 Peter 2:18)
Slaves should obey their masters? Hardly. Slavery was one of the most offensive institutions to ever befall humanity. Sadly, the scriptures condoned it, and, as you can see from the above verses, demanded that slaves obey their masters...even cruel ones. Are those verses the "Word of God?" Of course not. They are merely reflective of cultural biases which found their way into the Biblical text.
"So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged
itself its enemies, as it is written in the Book of Jashar. The sun stopped
in the middle of the sky and delayed going down for about a full day."
(Joshua 10:13 NIV)
The great astronomer Galileo was jailed by religious authorities when he asserted that the Earth revolved around the sun, and not the other way around, as the above verse suggests. If the Bible were the "inerrant, literal Word of God," as people like Jerry Falwell claim, surely God would have known that it was the Earth, and not the sun which had stopped.
In February of 1616, religious authorities asked a commission of theologians, known as the Qualifiers, about Galileo's claim that the Sun is at the center of the planets' motions and does not move, and that the Earth is not at the center and does move.
On February 24, 1616, the Qualifiers delivered their unanimous report: the idea that the Sun is stationary is "foolish and absurd in philosophy, and formally heretical since it explicitly contradicts many places the sense of Holy Scripture...".
_____________________________
"Hear the sage as his song descends
like heaven's rain or tears,
and washes the years, the dust of many stories
from the High Tale of the Dragonlance." michael williams.
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RE: Proof that fundamentalists selectively quote the Bi... - 7/13/2006 2:08:22 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7384
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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I appreciate your desire to take divert the issue to slavery, which Christianity alleviated, but the reality is the same Bible which is explicit on the nature of the relationship between a man and a women also compares their union to the union that we have with Christ as a church; that is, marriage, between a man and a woman is symbolic of our relationship with Christ.
Homosexuality perverts both the God's plan for men and women in marriage, and mocks the nature of our relationship to Christ. If one rejects the sinfulness of homosexuality, one rejects the truth of Scriptures, and the reality of Christ.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 7/13/2006 2:11:05 AM
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Storm-Over-Krynn
Posts: 24
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From: Honolulu,Hawaii
Status: offline
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Then answer how come this is no longer followed: If you were born to an unwed mother, the Bible says that you shouldn't be allowed in church. Do "Bible-believing" fundamentalists follow this rule? Nope. They acknowledge that this verse was meant for a different time.
Yes, even fundamentalists acknowledge that certain scriptures were only meant to be applied to the particular time and place in which they were written.
When it comes to those scripture verses which seem to speak against homosexuality, however, they suddenly and indignantly demand that every word be followed to the letter and applied to our modern day!
The idea of refusing membership in the church to a child born to an unwed mother is seen as being unreasonable today, even though the scripture instructs it. The idea of quoting scripture to abuse people who are gay and lesbian is just as unreasonable and antiquated.
You can't can you!
_____________________________
"Hear the sage as his song descends
like heaven's rain or tears,
and washes the years, the dust of many stories
from the High Tale of the Dragonlance." michael williams.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 7/13/2006 2:13:18 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7384
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Then answer how come this is no longer followed: If you were born to an unwed mother, the Bible says that you shouldn't be allowed in church. Do "Bible-believing" fundamentalists follow this rule? Nope. They acknowledge that this verse was meant for a different time.
Actually, the Bible says no such thing, which mean everything that follows your statement is based on a wrong premise.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 7/13/2006 2:17:30 AM
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Storm-Over-Krynn
Posts: 24
Joined: 1/13/2006
From: Honolulu,Hawaii
Status: offline
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"One of illegitimate birth shall not enter the congregation of the Lord." (Deuteronomy 23:2)
Yes, even fundamentalists acknowledge that certain scriptures were only meant to be applied to the particular time and place in which they were written.
When it comes to those scripture verses which seem to speak against homosexuality, however, they suddenly and indignantly demand that every word be followed to the letter and applied to our modern day!
The idea of refusing membership in the church to a child born to an unwed mother is seen as being unreasonable today, even though the scripture instructs it. The idea of quoting scripture to abuse people who are gay and lesbian is just as unreasonable and antiquated.
_____________________________
"Hear the sage as his song descends
like heaven's rain or tears,
and washes the years, the dust of many stories
from the High Tale of the Dragonlance." michael williams.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 7/13/2006 2:21:00 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7384
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
"One of illegitimate birth shall not enter the congregation of the Lord." (Deuteronomy 23:2)
Yes, even fundamentalists acknowledge that certain scriptures were only meant to be applied to the particular time and place in which they were written.
When it comes to those scripture verses which seem to speak against homosexuality, however, they suddenly and indignantly demand that every word be followed to the letter and applied to our modern day!
The idea of refusing membership in the church to a child born to an unwed mother is seen as being unreasonable today, even though the scripture instructs it. The idea of quoting scripture to abuse people who are gay and lesbian is just as unreasonable and antiquated.
Again, you are confusing Levitical proscriptions concerning the temple with clear New Testament teachings about the church; the church in the NT is the body of Christ, those indwelt by the Holy Spirit - no one can keep God from causing someone to be born-again, so your statement is nonsense.
There are no proscriptions that keep unwed mothers from being part of the church.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 7/13/2006 2:27:48 AM
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Storm-Over-Krynn
Posts: 24
Joined: 1/13/2006
From: Honolulu,Hawaii
Status: offline
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Deuteronomy 23:2
2 “No one born of a forbidden union may enter the assembly of the Lord. Even to the tenth generation, none of his descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord.
Compare this passage to the NIV NASB NLT KJV NKJV (Via the Bible Gateway)
The Holy Bible, English Standard Version copyright © 2001 by Crossway Bibles, a division of Good News Publishers. Used by permission. All rights reserved. Quotation information. Purchase an ESV. Comments? webmaster@gnpcb.org. Audio problems? Update Flash or try MP3s.
_____________________________
"Hear the sage as his song descends
like heaven's rain or tears,
and washes the years, the dust of many stories
from the High Tale of the Dragonlance." michael williams.
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 7/13/2006 2:29:16 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7384
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Deuteronomy 23:2
2 “No one born of a forbidden union may enter the assembly of the Lord. Even to the tenth generation, none of his descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord.
Compare this passage to the NIV NASB NLT KJV NKJV (Via the Bible Gateway)
The Holy Bible, English Standard Version copyright © 2001 by Crossway Bibles, a division of Good News Publishers. Used by permission. All rights reserved. Quotation information. Purchase an ESV. Comments? webmaster@gnpcb.org. Audio problems? Update Flash or try MP3s.
Still can't find anything that pertains to the NT church, can you?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Homosexuality in the News - 7/13/2006 2:36:37 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7384
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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Let me help you out here since you seem to have a hard time in the NT:
quote:
1 Corinthians 6:9 - 11
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God ? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
So there we have it in a nutshell; God says clearly that homsexuality is wrong (indeed, as is fornication which can lead to single motherhood) but there is hope for change in Christ.
Thus, the church doesn't gloss over homosexuality and pretend it is no longer wrong, but agrees with God that it is wrong, but not beyond the power of the Holy Spirit to wash, sanctify, and justify those who repent of their sinful lifestyles and turn to Christ.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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