RE: Homosexuality in the News (Full Version)

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HHV5 -> RE: Homosexuality in the News (8/25/2008 11:01:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcus.

If this was a woman who killed a man, there would be an outpouring of sympathy and support.


Unless there was attempted rape, I doubt it.



absolutemiss -> RE: Homosexuality in the News (8/25/2008 5:44:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcus.

Has anyone mentioned that this disturbed victim was sexually harassing the other one? If this was a woman who killed a man, there would be an outpouring of sympathy and support.


What do you base this on?? Even IF the "disturbed victim" was committing sexual harassment, I don't know of any forum in which MURDER is an acceptable response to that. Nor do I, personally, know anyone or know of anyone who would support such a response.

What frightens me is that this, one of the foremost conservative Christian communities online, has members who would support Branden's actions. As a conservative in a liberal field, this comments like this and Silvername's only add fuel to the fire when the liberals accuse us of hate. With Silvername's arguments in my head, I find it difficult to answer that. The truth is, there ARE those in our community who are preaching a hate-filled message, and I think that poses a far greater threat to the Christian message than anything else.

I'm rereading this post, and I don't mean to indicate that I think silvername speaks for all on here, because he very clearly doesn't. It just concerns me to have anyone in this community saying things like that.



HHV5 -> RE: Homosexuality in the News (8/25/2008 5:53:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: absolutemiss

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcus.

Has anyone mentioned that this disturbed victim was sexually harassing the other one? If this was a woman who killed a man, there would be an outpouring of sympathy and support.


What do you base this on?? Even IF the "disturbed victim" was committing sexual harassment, I don't know of any forum in which MURDER is an acceptable response to that. Nor do I, personally, know anyone or know of anyone who would support such a response.

What frightens me is that this, one of the foremost conservative Christian communities online, has members who would support Branden's actions. As a conservative in a liberal field, this comments like this and Silvername's only add fuel to the fire when the liberals accuse us of hate. With Silvername's arguments in my head, I find it difficult to answer that. The truth is, there ARE those in our community who are preaching a hate-filled message, and I think that poses a far greater threat to the Christian message than anything else.

I'm rereading this post, and I don't mean to indicate that I think silvername speaks for all on here, because he very clearly doesn't. It just concerns me to have anyone in this community saying things like that.


What concerns me isn't Silvername -- it's the virtual silence from everyone else that is disconcerting.



Marcus. -> RE: Homosexuality in the News (8/25/2008 7:23:27 PM)

I'm not referring to the murder but no one seems bothered by this young, disturbed man sexually harassing the other kid who killed him. I haven't heard anyone talking about the harassment the disturbed kid was doing. I remember reading about it in the articles associated with the story but with no protests against it. Branden should have been using sexual harassment laws against his stalker instead of killing him. Obviously Branden wasn't mature enough nor knowledgeable enough to know how to deal with this perverse sexual harassment he was being subjected to.

He shouldn't have killed him. Being that this is a Christian message board that seems to me to go without saying. But obviously not from the response.



stellaluna -> RE: Homosexuality in the News (8/25/2008 8:02:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcus.
I'm not referring to the murder but no one seems bothered by this young, disturbed man sexually harassing the other kid who killed him. I haven't heard anyone talking about the harassment the disturbed kid was doing. I remember reading about it in the articles associated with the story but with no protests against it. Branden should have been using sexual harassment laws against his stalker instead of killing him. Obviously Branden wasn't mature enough nor knowledgeable enough to know how to deal with this perverse sexual harassment he was being subjected to.

I'm bothered by it, but it's kind of moot at this point. (Seeing as how we didn't know about anything going on until after the fact.) There are children in schools and on playgrounds and in homes all over this country who are bullied, abused, harrassed, etc. And that's exactly why I'm shocked that murders like this don't happen a lot more often. The fact that Brandon was being sexually harrassed by another boy is kind of irrelevant to the larger picture. It also doesn't make this murder "okay" or self-defense.



Marcus. -> RE: Homosexuality in the News (8/25/2008 8:05:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

The fact that Brandon was being sexually harrassed by another boy is kind of irrelevant to the larger picture. It also doesn't make this murder "okay" or self-defense.


IMO it's central to the case. The media has framed this as a LGBT issue when it is a sexual harassment/stalking issue.

I'm not implying in any way shape or form that murdering the stalker is ok. But I'll state that since you brought it up.



stellaluna -> RE: Homosexuality in the News (8/25/2008 8:08:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcus.

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

The fact that Brandon was being sexually harrassed by another boy is kind of irrelevant to the larger picture. It also doesn't make this murder "okay" or self-defense.


IMO it's central to the case. The media has framed this as a LGBT issue when it is a sexual harassment/stalking issue.

Well, that's true.



HisFish -> RE: Homosexuality in the News (8/25/2008 8:40:40 PM)

quote:

Sure, defend yourself with force against someone trying to rape you--I wouldn't argue against one's right to do that (though I think ample debates can be made on whether or not Christ would do that)

absolutemiss, are you sure you meant this?. Jesus wouldn't have stopped someone from sodomizing Him?. If you did, your wrong, there is no debate that He would have stopped anyone trying that, and if your telling any women that it's somehow Godly to submit to rape then you need to re-think some things.



henny -> RE: Homosexuality in the News (8/26/2008 12:04:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HHV5
What concerns me isn't Silvername -- it's the virtual silence from everyone else that is disconcerting.


It's bizarre to me how this community will allow someone to argue that killing a homosexual is justified if they "hit on you" (see post 1493), yet the mods descend instantly if anyone argues too much in favor of homosexuality. So I guess arguing that gays should be able to marry is the ultimate banable offense, yet arguing that it's justifiable to kill a homosexual if he "hits on you" is perfectly upstanding and Christian subject matter for discussion? That just seems completely and utterly backwards to me.

I have no interest in challenging TOS. This community is free to enforce whatever rules it wishes, so that's not why I bring this up. I bring it up just because I think it's indicative of the entirely backwards approach to both homosexuality as an issue and the discussion of homosexuality that many right wing evangelical organizations often take. I think most evangelicals DO NOT hate homosexuals in anyway, and my experience on this forum has been that the vast majority of people who come here generally mean well (even if they lack knowledge at times). But the hysteria over the issue and the backwards approach to discussing it doesn't exactly help evangelicals any when it comes to dispelling stereotypes among the general populace that they are all hateful bigots.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Homosexuality in the News (8/26/2008 12:38:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheosCentric

Silvername's recent posts remind of Steve Taylor's satirical song, "I Blew Up the Clinic Real Good". Perhaps an updated one would say, "I killed the homosexual real good"?

Wonder if Jesus approves of such violence? According to Matthew 5, he doesn't.



Actually He doesn't approve of people taking matters into their own hand's.... Vengeance is His and He will have it on those in the clinics and those who mock Him with their homosexual agenda...



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Homosexuality in the News (8/26/2008 12:43:59 AM)

quote:


ORIGINAL: henny

It's bizarre to me how this community will allow someone to argue that killing a homosexual is justified if they "hit on you" (see post 1493), yet the mods descend instantly if anyone argues too much in favor of homosexuality. So I guess arguing that gays should be able to marry is the ultimate banable offense, yet arguing that it's justifiable to kill a homosexual if he "hits on you" is perfectly upstanding and Christian subject matter for discussion? That just seems completely and utterly backwards to me.


One can claim Christ and believe it's ok to murder the unborn so it would seem the community is pretty consistent...

For the record I believe I posted that the person committed murder and should be tried like an adult and I as well posted in regards to the fact he took the law into his own hands in response to the person who said he had the right to take matters into his own hands... So there hasn't been complete silence on the matter...



henny -> RE: Homosexuality in the News (8/26/2008 1:37:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
For the record I believe I posted that the person committed murder and should be tried like an adult and I as well posted in regards to the fact he took the law into his own hands in response to the person who said he had the right to take matters into his own hands... So there hasn't been complete silence on the matter...


Yes, I saw your post, and commend you for speaking out.

There were several other frequent posters who spoke out against Silvername as well, so I disagree that people have been silent, and as I said I don't think that most people who visit here share Silvername's views.

I was just musing over the general approach to the topic of homosexuality, which has always had inconsistencies I've wondered about (another being, as you indirectly point out, the abortion one).

But I'll drop it, as this probably isn't the best place to discuss such things.



absolutemiss -> RE: Homosexuality in the News (8/26/2008 1:52:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HisFish

quote:

Sure, defend yourself with force against someone trying to rape you--I wouldn't argue against one's right to do that (though I think ample debates can be made on whether or not Christ would do that)

absolutemiss, are you sure you meant this?. Jesus wouldn't have stopped someone from sodomizing Him?. If you did, your wrong, there is no debate that He would have stopped anyone trying that, and if your telling any women that it's somehow Godly to submit to rape then you need to re-think some things.


I would NEVER argue against ANYONE's right to defend themselves from sodomy/rape. Jesus underwent a GREAT many humiliating things without lifting a finger to defend himself. I don't know that I think he would have drawn the line at rape. I DON'T KNOW.

I absolutely did not intend to suggest that women should submit to anything harmful. OR that men should.

I mean exactly what I said--that I imagine someone COULD make a debate for that. I'm not. Nor would I. I believe that if someone threatens you or your loved ones physically, you have the right to defend yourself. Period.

quote:

ORIGINAL: henny

It's bizarre to me how this community will allow someone to argue that killing a homosexual is justified if they "hit on you" (see post 1493), yet the mods descend instantly if anyone argues too much in favor of homosexuality. So I guess arguing that gays should be able to marry is the ultimate banable offense, yet arguing that it's justifiable to kill a homosexual if he "hits on you" is perfectly upstanding and Christian subject matter for discussion? That just seems completely and utterly backwards to me.


Thanks for making this point, Henny. It's EXACTLY what I was trying to get at, and couldn't seem to articulate. There are official sanctions on this community for any support of gay marriage, and I'm fine with that. But the fact that there aren't official sanctions for promoting the kind of hate that silvername was doing surprises me. I'm sure there are other inconsistencies (like someone mentioned about abortion), and that our mods and admins are walking a fine line between allowing freedom of speech and upholding christian principles. It's just that, for me, silvername's ideas are more unChristlike than any secular ideas. But, I suppose that the board ISN'T actually run on MY views...[;)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcus.

IMO it's central to the case. The media has framed this as a LGBT issue when it is a sexual harassment/stalking issue.


I'm not sure I agree with this. I guess the crux of the matter is whether Branden did what he did because he felt threatened/stalked, or because the person doing so was gay. The extreme force used indicates, to me, that it WAS a LGBT issue. Many people are sexually harassed without escalating to extreme force. My initial thought is that there was another factor--ie, the fact that the "harasser" was gay.

Also, I haven't read any of the articles you mentioned, Marcus, and I'm guessing they were less popular than mainstream media, simply b/c of how liberal mainstream media tends to be. Any links? I realize you might not have them, just because they'd be older articles now, but thought I'd ask.



stellaluna -> RE: Homosexuality in the News (8/26/2008 6:08:32 PM)

I think sometimes the problem is that Christians--or maybe Christians on this board?--don't care about any particular gay person in real life, or think they don't. Instead of walking out your faith in your relationship with someone living in persistent and very destructive sin and trying to pray and love them out of it, they just think it's gross.

So when approaching a story like this one, murder becomes a justifiable action solely the person was gay. This was a situation that needed to be handled, not because it was a homosexual issue, but like Marcus pointed out, it was a sexual harrassment/stalking issue. It should have been handled regardless of the gender of either party, and in my opinion, murder wouldn't have been justifiable in any instance--same gender or opposite gender.



cow451 -> RE: Homosexuality in the News (8/26/2008 7:15:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

I think sometimes the problem is that Christians--or maybe Christians on this board?--don't care about any particular gay person in real life, or think they don't. Instead of walking out your faith in your relationship with someone living in persistent and very destructive sin and trying to pray and love them out of it, they just think it's gross.

So when approaching a story like this one, murder becomes a justifiable action solely the person was gay. This was a situation that needed to be handled, not because it was a homosexual issue, but like Marcus pointed out, it was a sexual harrassment/stalking issue. It should have been handled regardless of the gender of either party, and in my opinion, murder wouldn't have been justifiable in any instance--same gender or opposite gender.


Criminals justify their actions by blaming their victimes. "He shouldn't have been this place, She shouldn't have been wearing that, He should've given up his money, etc."

Employers are learning that they have to go beyond addressing "sexual harrassment" to dealing with "hostile work environments".

Just my .02.



stellaluna -> RE: Homosexuality in the News (8/26/2008 9:32:33 PM)

I think you're absolutely right. And I also think that schools are way behind when it comes to addressing a hostile school environment.



Thessa -> RE: Homosexuality in the News (8/28/2008 7:28:47 PM)

http://wcbstv.com/politics/same.sex.marriage.2.805445.html


[:(][:(][:(]


Im glad i dont live in California. Im glad to live in a state that will hopefully NEVER support gay marriage.



HHV5 -> RE: Homosexuality in the News (9/2/2008 1:01:17 AM)

Shirley Phelps: Nine Reasons Why "God Hates Colorado"

She also posted this comment in the comment section.

quote:

You undiciplined brutes. The LOVE of God is reserved for the penitent - NOT the rebels. If you do not repent - that is - change your mind and change your conduct, you have NO right to discuss the love of God.

Paul is talking about the way servants of God must love one another. Other than that, Christ and every other writer of the scriptures agree on this - you must love your neighbor as yourself and your enemy and everyone and God told you what that looks like. It is getting out in the public places and warning them to flee from the wrath to come - warning them that their sin will take them to hell! If you don’t do that, you hate each other in your hearts! You can’t change that - God did that! It is HIS work and it is HIS standards that rule!

So - from this happy and thankful servant of God, I warn you again - OBEY YOUR GOD!! Put away your filthy manner of life - shut your mouth and OBEY YOUR GOD! Hell is real - ask Matt!

Your best friend,

Shirley Phelps-Roper
8/31/08


Anyone care to offer his/her opinion on this lady?



Thessa -> RE: Homosexuality in the News (9/2/2008 1:13:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HHV5

Shirley Phelps: Nine Reasons Why "God Hates Colorado"

She also posted this comment in the comment section.

quote:

You undiciplined brutes. The LOVE of God is reserved for the penitent - NOT the rebels. If you do not repent - that is - change your mind and change your conduct, you have NO right to discuss the love of God.

Paul is talking about the way servants of God must love one another. Other than that, Christ and every other writer of the scriptures agree on this - you must love your neighbor as yourself and your enemy and everyone and God told you what that looks like. It is getting out in the public places and warning them to flee from the wrath to come - warning them that their sin will take them to hell! If you don’t do that, you hate each other in your hearts! You can’t change that - God did that! It is HIS work and it is HIS standards that rule!

So - from this happy and thankful servant of God, I warn you again - OBEY YOUR GOD!! Put away your filthy manner of life - shut your mouth and OBEY YOUR GOD! Hell is real - ask Matt!

Your best friend,

Shirley Phelps-Roper
8/31/08


Anyone care to offer his/her opinion on this lady?



Shes wrong. God dosent hate anyone. He just hates sin.



stellaluna -> RE: Homosexuality in the News (9/2/2008 10:25:29 AM)

There's a certain irony in any Phelps family member talking about loving their neighbor. [sm=aside.gif]



gmc4Jesus -> RE: Homosexuality in the News (9/3/2008 1:12:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: absolutemiss

I would NEVER argue against ANYONE's right to defend themselves from sodomy/rape. Jesus underwent a GREAT many humiliating things without lifting a finger to defend himself. I don't know that I think he would have drawn the line at rape. I DON'T KNOW.



I recall that Jesus defended Himself on many occasions. Fortunately, He was always able to do it with words instead of weapons. When He didn't defend Himself, it was to not hinder His crucifixion. Otherwise, Jesus was quite a warrior, standing singlehandedly against the entire Jewish religious establishment and government.

However, if you recall, He instructed the Apostles to purchase a sword (a weapon for self defense, not for buttering bread) on the night in the upper room.

I would pray that you never have to use a weapon to protect your or your familie's life, but if you do, I pray that you are trained in its use and successful in protecting yourself and family.

Regarding homosexuality, one matter the homosexual community cannot disregard, but it is too seldom addressed when seeking to witness to them about God's standards and will. The Bible clearly and repeatedly teaches that sex is to be between a husband and his wife. Any other sexual behavior, fornication, adultery, homosexuality, bestiality, etc. is sin. Our goal as Christians is to become more like Jesus, not see how much sin we can get away with and still get to heaven.

End of discussion.

May God give you favor, respect and a positive witness when seeking to help a homosexual person see that God wants them to be sexually pure.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Homosexuality in the News (9/3/2008 9:00:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thessa

quote:

ORIGINAL: HHV5

Shirley Phelps: Nine Reasons Why "God Hates Colorado"

She also posted this comment in the comment section.

quote:

You undiciplined brutes. The LOVE of God is reserved for the penitent - NOT the rebels. If you do not repent - that is - change your mind and change your conduct, you have NO right to discuss the love of God.

Paul is talking about the way servants of God must love one another. Other than that, Christ and every other writer of the scriptures agree on this - you must love your neighbor as yourself and your enemy and everyone and God told you what that looks like. It is getting out in the public places and warning them to flee from the wrath to come - warning them that their sin will take them to hell! If you don’t do that, you hate each other in your hearts! You can’t change that - God did that! It is HIS work and it is HIS standards that rule!

So - from this happy and thankful servant of God, I warn you again - OBEY YOUR GOD!! Put away your filthy manner of life - shut your mouth and OBEY YOUR GOD! Hell is real - ask Matt!

Your best friend,

Shirley Phelps-Roper
8/31/08


Anyone care to offer his/her opinion on this lady?



Shes wrong. God dosent hate anyone. He just hates sin.



Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psalms 11:5 The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.



tracydolls -> RE: Homosexuality in the News (9/3/2008 9:48:36 PM)

I have a brother that was just stabbed because he caught a gay male( a friend of his daughter) in the room with his grandson with just thongs? on.

He called the police and had him arrested for assault. He wanted to kill him but he didnt.

HE also got a restraining order against him.

The guy got out about 2 days later, this is after the police said yes he has a history of stabbing people.

now he is threatening my brother in phone calls, didnt check in with his probation officer, so no one knows where he is.

I also have a gay sister.

It's hard to know what to do besides love them



bettymackII -> RE: Homosexuality in the News (9/4/2008 10:41:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls

I have a brother that was just stabbed because he caught a gay male( a friend of his daughter) in the room with his grandson with just thongs? on.

He called the police and had him arrested for assault. He wanted to kill him but he didnt.

HE also got a restraining order against him.

The guy got out about 2 days later, this is after the police said yes he has a history of stabbing people.

now he is threatening my brother in phone calls, didnt check in with his probation officer, so no one knows where he is.

I also have a gay sister.

It's hard to know what to do besides love them


We will pray for your brother that God will protect and we are grateful that your brother protected his grandson!

You are right, we should love everybody and we should pray for them too.



Onecontent -> RE: Homosexuality in the News (9/6/2008 12:39:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcus.

I'm not referring to the murder but no one seems bothered by this young, disturbed man sexually harassing the other kid who killed him. I haven't heard anyone talking about the harassment the disturbed kid was doing. I remember reading about it in the articles associated with the story but with no protests against it. Branden should have been using sexual harassment laws against his stalker instead of killing him. Obviously Branden wasn't mature enough nor knowledgeable enough to know how to deal with this perverse sexual harassment he was being subjected to.

He shouldn't have killed him. Being that this is a Christian message board that seems to me to go without saying. But obviously not from the response.


I read the Newsweek article and a number of the teachers at that junior high school were trying to get the administration to put some limits on Larry but the lesbian vice principle would not act. Larry's own brother asked that limits be placed on Larry.

Brandon sinned in murdering Larry. No question. When I read the article, I was furious that Brandon had no recourse. If the teachers who saw Larry being a jerk were powerless to stop him, why would Brandon turn to one of them? If the vice principal was clearly on Larry's side, why go to her?

Please understand my perspective: In my professional life I have heard, observed, and experienced homesexuals bullying and the victims have no recourse. It was not sexually expressed bullying but it was bullying no the less.

Going to HR is not an option. Nurmerous people have complained and one bully is still in a position of authority. Been there 20 years. I believe this woman went though her gay network to hurt me after I transferred job sites to get away from her.

The gay network in this jobsite tried to professionally harm another employee for 5 years becuse they thought that the way she responded to what they interpreted as a "lesbian hit" was "innappropriate". If a man had hit on the employee and she rudely turned him down, no one would have gotten upset. As it was, the lesbian herself was angry that other gays got involved: she felt the matter merited a private discussion not group punishment.

While I agree that one poster was extreme in veiwing Brandon's shooting of Larry as an act of self defense, I can see where Brandon felt threatened by Larry. Unfortunately Brandon took defending himeself WAY TOO far. Larry knew that Brandon was made uncomfortable by his overtures and Larry enjoyed seing people squim. Larry choose to bully an unstable young man and it literally blew up on him.

Strange as it sounds, part of the problem in this situation is that Larry received too much grace, too much tolerance. Limits should have been set on his behavior. I have a gay relative who as an adult has suffered violence becaue he is gay. As a teenager he had earned the ire and censure of the family because of his behavior. Maybe Larry would be alive today if he had received less support and more limit setting and punishment.

If they know a boy will be harrassed for wearing heels and girl's clothing, why were the adults allowing it? I do not know the rules of that school but I wonder if Larry could have gotten away with wearing a Christian T-shirt that made no reference to homosexuals?



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