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Trances? - 5/24/2008 6:34:52 PM
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bride48
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What were the trances mentioned in Acts 10:10, Acts 22:17 and 2 Corinthians 12:1-10? They puzzle me.
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RE: Trances? - 5/24/2008 7:16:58 PM
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colliefan
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My take: a gift given for the establishment of the church
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RE: Trances? - 5/25/2008 4:07:31 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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bride48....... could you expound on your question a little bit? I mean, I hate to be over-literalist but they were trances. Call them "vivd visions" if it helps to clear up the terminology a little. Based on the wording of the greek, it indicates that the people having these trances had all the outward manifestations of a trance (being transfixed, not moving... that kind of thing) but they were having incredible visions as well. Personally, I think God is more than capable of so arresting a person's attention that they freeze in their tracks, so none of these are really that difficult.
Adam
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RE: Trances? - 5/26/2008 1:11:50 PM
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bride48
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This thread was inspired by the controversy over Todd Bentley's "revival" in Lakeland, Florida. There's a thread about the revival in The Church folder, so I don't want to debate that specific issue here. It just got me thinking about the three passages I brought up here.
Trances seem more consistant with Eastern Mysticism than with Biblical Christianity. So what were these three trances? Were they unique to the apostles, since the books of the New Testament were still being written?
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DebbieLynne
Use The Time Well (blog entry)
<--In honor of Above All and Dawgfan's wedding
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RE: Trances? - 5/26/2008 1:32:52 PM
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rcjames
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I do not know much about the Lakeland stuff, nor do I want to; But.
I have had a number of times in my life had an experience as descripte in the Bible as a "Trance".
When Studying the Scripture and seeking the Lord for revelation there has beent time that I evidently went into a trance, for I would at sometime (usually a few moments) later realize that I had received major amounts of information (revelation) about what I was reading.
Nothing spooky or wierd, just some laspe time and then a deep knowledge of what I was seeking.
Every time I preached on this revelation (which always lined up with the Word) wonderjul things happened and lives were changed.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Trances? - 5/27/2008 3:37:48 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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quote:
This thread was inspired by the controversy over Todd Bentley's "revival" in Lakeland, Florida. There's a thread about the revival in The Church folder, so I don't want to debate that specific issue here. It just got me thinking about the three passages I brought up here.
Trances seem more consistant with Eastern Mysticism than with Biblical Christianity. So what were these three trances? Were they unique to the apostles, since the books of the New Testament were still being written? Ah... Now I know where you are coming from. Unfortunately most the church has an unhealthy fascination with the Sola Scriptura doctrine. While it is a fine piece of doctrine and a good creed, many people have taken it to the extreme that the only communication they ever need from God is what is already written in the Bible. However, prophetic encounters, visions, and trances happened in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. This alone would lead me to believe that they are not limited just to the Apostles.
Now for the Mysticism thing. A wise person once said that Satan cannot create, he can only twist and counterfeit what God already does. While this may not be 100% truth, it at least gives us pause to think that maybe the experiential part of mysticism and occultic ceremony is merely a perversion of a gift that God intended for us. Remember, in the Garden of Eden, God physically walked with men. Remember also, that Jesus came so that God could walk among us again. There is no spiritual experience higher than walking side by side with God... but that doesn't negate lesser experiences such as visions, trances, transportations and the like. Mysticism (eastern or western) is not unique in any way. Last time I checked, God was much more powerful than any mystic traditions the Asiatic peoples can envision. To quote the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy......... "Don't Panic"
Adam
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RE: Trances? - 6/18/2008 8:08:28 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bride48
Trances seem more consistant with Eastern Mysticism than with Biblical Christianity. So what were these three trances? Were they unique to the apostles, since the books of the New Testament were still being written? Christianity, in contrast to what you have heard taught, is NOT a western religion. Never was nor should anyone have ever tried to make it one.
God still speaks to people individually. Sometimes that can so transfix a person they can become trance-like. Open visions (rare) are usually in somthing like a trance. Open vision is where your surroundings disappear and you seem to be somewhere else like heaven.
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RE: Trances? - 6/18/2008 2:20:38 PM
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Lapidoth
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I had an (open) vision when I was 15, many moons ago.
I was just thinking that perhaps in such a state, the one
"seeing" wouldn't think themselves in a trance, but may
appear to those around them as being in one. ????
Like Dave said, those are rare.
You can't conjure them up like TB and others say you can.
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RE: Trances? - 6/18/2008 4:37:17 PM
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bride48
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I'm thinking through all your posts. Thanks!
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DebbieLynne
Use The Time Well (blog entry)
<--In honor of Above All and Dawgfan's wedding
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RE: Trances? - 6/22/2008 10:31:15 PM
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Digrieze
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bride48
This thread was inspired by the controversy over Todd Bentley's "revival" in Lakeland, Florida. There's a thread about the revival in The Church folder, so I don't want to debate that specific issue here. It just got me thinking about the three passages I brought up here.
Trances seem more consistant with Eastern Mysticism than with Biblical Christianity. So what were these three trances? Were they unique to the apostles, since the books of the New Testament were still being written?
Don't let the english translation confuse you. Just because these experiences were called trances does not mean they were the same as those experienced by eastern mystics, the other religions in the semitic world, or western indian mysticism. The primary differance is this. In biblical "trances" the body of the person having the experience seems to be paralyzed, as if asleep, but the mind is fully active and experienceing whatever message God is giving in the vision. In the "trances" of the other religions the mind typically becomes dormant while the body is inhabited (possessed) by the god in question. The message is then given to others that record it. The most famous of these "trance" oracles was the oracle at Delphi.
To put it in modern context the experience being described in Lakeland (and what I saw there) is closer to the non-biblical possession above than the biblical trance-vision in the verses you cited.
I've been away from the boards due to travel for a while, and during that time I got to visit a Vineyard church in Washington state as well as the Lakeland, Florida "revival". I'm trying to read through relevant thread before posting there so I don't repeat the points of someone else who has actually been there, but plan to post what I saw soon.
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RE: Trances? - 6/23/2008 10:51:54 AM
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e.barrett
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I think FurGodWurLivin pretty much nails the answer. But let me just add one more point - God isn't limited to communicating to us in just one way. Moses got some face-to-face time as well as a burning bush. Paul had a vision. And we all have access to the Holy Spirit. So it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that God could choose to communicate to us in a trance-like state. Just because I've never experienced that, doesn't mean he can't do it. :)
Of course this is why the whole idea of "discernment" is so important. We need to know if the trance / prayers / bush were all sincere and from God.
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RE: Trances? - 6/23/2008 3:45:32 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
quote:
This thread was inspired by the controversy over Todd Bentley's "revival" in Lakeland, Florida. There's a thread about the revival in The Church folder, so I don't want to debate that specific issue here. It just got me thinking about the three passages I brought up here.
Trances seem more consistant with Eastern Mysticism than with Biblical Christianity. So what were these three trances? Were they unique to the apostles, since the books of the New Testament were still being written? Ah... Now I know where you are coming from. Unfortunately most the church has an unhealthy fascination with the Sola Scriptura doctrine. While it is a fine piece of doctrine and a good creed, many people have taken it to the extreme that the only communication they ever need from God is what is already written in the Bible. However, prophetic encounters, visions, and trances happened in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. This alone would lead me to believe that they are not limited just to the Apostles.
Even if - they would never contradict Scripture. Which is often the case with those that claim supernatural trances, out of body experiences, etc..
If for us present living Christians the Bible is not the sole authority, the litmus test for all things of God, for the truth of the Lord. Then what is? Our emotions? Fickle. Our experiences? Could be deceptive.
Do we belittle the sole authority as a novel doctrine and leave the door open, even if just a little, for deception and demonic forces?
< Message edited by earthless -- 6/23/2008 3:54:39 PM >
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RE: Trances? - 6/23/2008 3:58:31 PM
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bride48
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Earthless, glad you finally found this thread. From reading your blog, which I found through Peculiar Lady's blog, I know that I can trust your discernment. Could you explain the trances in the Scriptures I referenced? I'm really interested in your explanation. Thanks!
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DebbieLynne
Use The Time Well (blog entry)
<--In honor of Above All and Dawgfan's wedding
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RE: Trances? - 6/23/2008 5:45:48 PM
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FurGodWurLivin
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quote:
Even if - they would never contradict Scripture. Never said they would. You assumed that I was saying they might.quote:
Which is often the case with those that claim supernatural trances, out of body experiences, etc..
Just like is often the case of those who never claim any kind of visitation but still manage to preach bad doctrine. IE, cessationism is false doctrine. Replacement theology is false doctrine. Both of these are held to by people who claim no kind of supernatural encounter. Aren't umbrella statements awesome?quote:
If for us present living Christians the Bible is not the sole authority, the litmus test for all things of God, for the truth of the Lord. Then what is? Our emotions? Fickle. Our experiences? Could be deceptive. Leaving aside the argument that the Bible WAS experience that "could have been deceptive", we have a much bigger misunderstanding. I said that there is an "unhealthy fascination with the doctrine of Sola Scriptura". I also said that it was "good doctrine and a good creed." However, I believe that God speaks to us directly as well as through the Bible. The experience will not contradict SCRIPTURE, but it might contradict our UNDERSTANDING of scripture. That is a whale of a difference. Lets consult the Bible itself.... Hebrews 1:1, "God, who in various ways at various times spoke through his servants the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son." God speaks to us through His Son... the verse does not indicate that the prophets are done, but that in these last days God speaks through His Son. Just something to think about.quote:
Do we belittle the sole authority as a novel doctrine and leave the door open, even if just a little, for deception and demonic forces? I am not challenging the Bible's authority... especially because fighting tooth and nail for Sola Scriptura does not immunize you from deception and "demonic forces"... Rather, I challenge the idea that the ONLY WAY God speaks is the ink and paper of the Bible. Hope that clears up the apparent misunderstanding.
Adam
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RE: Trances? - 6/23/2008 5:47:08 PM
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Bluethread
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As the Scriptures say, a cord of three strands can not easily be broken. If one diligently checks ones personal revelation, whatever form it may take, with the written word and interaction with other believers on a daily basis, then we can be relatively comfortable that we will not be lead astray. This is why the first century CE believers dedicated themselves to study, fellowship and prayer. This also works the other ways. fellowship alone can lead one astray as we see in the sin of Balaam. Study alone can lead to literalism. So, if one has trances, I believe, one should make sure that one is testing them with the Scriptures and frequent convocations.
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RE: Trances? - 6/23/2008 6:59:23 PM
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earthless
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Adam,
That is all great and good - but the fact remains that many in IHOP and the other related circles hold to individuals' false claims of visitations, trances, etc.. that do not pass the test of Scripture nor of historical events.
Obviously the line of demarcation is not being kept by many that vouch for these things.
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RE: Trances? - 6/24/2008 6:06:00 PM
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bride48
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My original question, Earthless, was regarding the three recorded trances in Acts and 2 Corinthians. What do you make of them?
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DebbieLynne
Use The Time Well (blog entry)
<--In honor of Above All and Dawgfan's wedding
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RE: Trances? - 6/25/2008 10:06:36 AM
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Ntech
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I would point out that according to Acts 2-17 and 18 and in Joel that in the end times visions and dreams were to return. And the reasons for them? To warn of the coming troubles ahead in those times. The same job that the prophets filled in old Israel. Watchmen.
< Message edited by Ntech -- 6/26/2008 12:35:34 PM >
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RE: Trances? - 6/26/2008 10:50:17 AM
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solarflare
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In the case of the 3 trances in question, in each case, it was God who sovereignly initiated the trance. God, was in control of the individual's faculties - the individual was not seeking such an experience.
We are not to seek after such things - rather, leave them to God's descretion. I do believe such a thing could happen today. I doubt that the individual would brag and boast about it all over the place - Paul certainly did not.
Saying these things no longer exist does not make it so. Pointing out all the wrong teachings and experiences (while it must be done) does not negate that which is true. To be sure, there does appear to be a proliferation of false experiences on the go - we are not to seek after signs and wonders - but rather, Jesus.
Simply going over and over what is false does not explain that which is true. And, there is much that is true and not explained away by what is false.
< Message edited by solarflare -- 6/26/2008 10:56:53 AM >
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RE: Trances? - 6/26/2008 4:46:27 PM
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bride48
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
In the case of the 3 trances in question, in each case, it was God who sovereignly initiated the trance. God, was in control of the individual's faculties - the individual was not seeking such an experience.
We are not to seek after such things - rather, leave them to God's descretion. I do believe such a thing could happen today. I doubt that the individual would brag and boast about it all over the place - Paul certainly did not.
Saying these things no longer exist does not make it so. Pointing out all the wrong teachings and experiences (while it must be done) does not negate that which is true. To be sure, there does appear to be a proliferation of false experiences on the go - we are not to seek after signs and wonders - but rather, Jesus.
Simply going over and over what is false does not explain that which is true. And, there is much that is true and not explained away by what is false.
Now that makes sens
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DebbieLynne
Use The Time Well (blog entry)
<--In honor of Above All and Dawgfan's wedding
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RE: Trances? - 6/26/2008 9:36:03 PM
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FurGodWurLivin
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quote:
Adam,
That is all great and good - but the fact remains that many in IHOP and the other related circles hold to individuals' false claims of visitations, trances, etc.. that do not pass the test of Scripture nor of historical events.
Obviously the line of demarcation is not being kept by many that vouch for these things. So take it to those threads... it would seem to be off-topic here. So either you are deflecting my point (which is a surrender of the point), or you are attempting to make a weak attack on me personally (which is also a surrender of the point).quote:
In the case of the 3 trances in question, in each case, it was God who sovereignly initiated the trance. God, was in control of the individual's faculties - the individual was not seeking such an experience. **Ding!** +4 points!quote:
We are not to seek after such things - rather, leave them to God's descretion. I do believe such a thing could happen today. *Ding!** +1 point!quote:
I doubt that the individual would brag and boast about it all over the place - Paul certainly did not. I often find that the difference between reporting an incident several times and boasting is the attitude of the listener.quote:
Simply going over and over what is false does not explain that which is true. And, there is much that is true and not explained away by what is false. **Ding!** +20 points! Game, set, and match!
Adam
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