Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but praised in the Bible?
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Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but praised... - 5/1/2008 6:48:58 AM
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StephenJ
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Yup it's a long one, grab some popcorn.
So this post has been a long time coming for me. It’s been something I’ve been thinking about for quite a few years now, and ever since I joined these forums I’ve wanted to post it. A recent thread in the current events folder finally made me do it.
First let me state that I’m not a Muslim, and I’m not an apologist for Islamic beliefs. I have very serious theological and practical disagreements with this belief system; foremost among them of course is my belief that Christ was more than the 2nd greatest prophet, but there are others as well.
Okeydokey, so we’ve all heard the arguments in Christian circles, and even secularist circles, about Islam being an inherently violent and intolerant religion. That it’s founder the Prophet Mohamed was a sword wielding, army leading, pedophilic fanatic who terrorized the Arab Peninsula in the 7th century, and that only do to the efforts of revisionist with an agenda has he become anything but in the minds of many. I hear these sentiments a lot in Christian discussions and sometimes, to my shame as a member of the body of Christ, I’ve seen people use them to justify discriminatory practices, prejudices, and curtailing of civil rights. My question is this though, why is it that people are so ready to point out the violent sections of the Qu’ran “the sword passages” as they’re called, but will not do the same thing when it comes to some very, very violent passages of the Bible?
The Old Testament has plenty of examples of shall we say “infidel smiting” in books like Joshua and Judges as well as in the books of Samuel and Kings. All of this seems to be going on with God’s approval. Doesn’t it seem a bit hypocritical that certain Christian text book companies will make good and sure that the kids reading them in school will come to see Islam as nothing but intolerance and bloodshed, while also praising the Israelite eradication of Canaanite men women and babies because they were pagans? In fact we teach them to our young kids in Sunday school as examples of the kind of moral behavior that is to be respected, and admired. If we are willing to condemn Islam's prophet for his participation in military campaigns, doesn’t that also mean that fairness demands equally scathing criticism of men like Joshua, David and most of the figures in Judges for engaging in some very similar and very brutal activities?
It’s interesting “Jihad” is a word that is used alot in the media today. It’s understandable with many of the terrorist groups running around, and it’s often translated to mean "holy war." From what I’ve read that’s not the best translation of it, a better one would be struggle or holy struggle, as it can refer to anything from full on armed conflict, to a Muslim trying to break a bad habit and better themselves. So for example a Muslim person struggling with alcoholism (Islam forbids drinking) going to a recovery meeting might be considered “jihad.” This is beside the point though, the point is that many Christians will point to the jihad of "the sword", say that it’s an element of Islamic theology, and use it to support the claim that the terrorist are the true practitioners of faithful Islam. Very few however would point to some the more violent passages of the Old Testament and say that the Bible is inherently violent and intolerant.
I don’t know, to me that seems a bit unfair, and not even handed. I’m also kind of concerned that only the sword passages are really considered when it comes to the Qu’ran. The fact is that many of us jump to read all the stuff about fighting and warfare (me included) and tend to overlook the stuff that say condemns suicide (ironic I know given the current methods used by many Islamic Terrorist groups) or relates the murder of a single person to the collective death of all humanity. I'm worried that it's not a complete view of a very complicate religion that's had 14 centuries of history.
It would be like me taking a particularly violent passage of scripture like let’s say Elijah's execution of another religions followers (Baal’s prophet’s) and painting the whole Bible as brutal intolerance without reading the sections about grace, forgiveness and mercy. Context is what I’m talking about I suppose.
Of course we as Christians all know that there is a distinct separation between what was done in the Old Testament and how we believers are suppose to conduct ourselves in the age of the church, but still we count the O.T as inspired literature. But I don’t think I've seen many noted Christian leaders become so introspective that they point out the violence in the Bible while they’re pointing out the violence in the Qu’ran/Hadiths. Come to think of it, there aren’t very many Christians I know of nowadays who would call say Judaism an inherently violent and intolerant religion because the Torah (the first five books of our Bible) has certain passages in it relating to justified religious warfare. Judaism even has something called the [Milkhemet Mitzvah which as I understand it is a pretty close parallel to a Christian crusade or Islam's Jihad of the Sword.
So that’s my brain barf I guess, I’ve been waiting to throw it out there for discussion for a long time now. I have my own views on it but I’m really curious to see what everyone has to say.
Thanks in advance, and God Bless.
P.S I wasn’t sure which folder this topic belonged in, but if it’s in the wrong place feel free to move it to the one which is does belong in.
< Message edited by StephenJ -- 5/1/2008 6:56:23 AM >
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/1/2008 12:50:22 PM
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Jhud
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While it is true in ancient Israel that within the confines of Israel's borders groups that threatened the countries existence were dealt with severely and intentionally, it was never seen as a form of evangelism or attempt to spread the Jewish faith.
Indeed, if the Muslims confined there violence to a single country they called their own, I doubt there would be a peep from the international community about their violent tendencies.
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Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/1/2008 12:57:17 PM
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Wild-Rose
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quote:
Joshua, David and most of the figures in Judges for engaging in some very similar and very brutal activities?
These men acted in obedience to God. Usually we can figure out the reasons if we read the stories in context. Some wars were because God wanted them to take the Holy Land. Sometimes God wanted tribes wiped out because of evil and idol worship.
Islam's prophet was doing his own thing, not in obedience with God, so no it is not the same thing.
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Rejoice that your name is written in heaven. Luke 10:20
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/1/2008 1:46:24 PM
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Wild-Rose
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quote:
So this post has been a long time coming for me. It’s been something I’ve been thinking about for quite a few years now,
Do you have a pastor you can talk to? I never let a question bother me for more than a few days. It's fine that you posted here, I just think it's sad that it bugged you for so long. When I have questions I ask my pastor. He loves a good challenge. If he doesn't know off the top of his head, he researches it and gets back to me.
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Rejoice that your name is written in heaven. Luke 10:20
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/1/2008 2:33:01 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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The Old Testament has plenty of examples of shall we say “infidel smiting” in books like Joshua and Judges as well as in the books of Samuel and Kings. All of this seems to be going on with God’s approval. Doesn’t it seem a bit hypocritical that certain Christian text book companies will make good and sure that the kids reading them in school will come to see Islam as nothing but intolerance and bloodshed, while also praising the Israelite eradication of Canaanite men women and babies because they were pagans? In fact we teach them to our young kids in Sunday school as examples of the kind of moral behavior that is to be respected, and admired. If we are willing to condemn Islam's prophet for his participation in military campaigns, doesn’t that also mean that fairness demands equally scathing criticism of men like Joshua, David and most of the figures in Judges for engaging in some very similar and very brutal activities?
Obeying God's commands to the degree the likes of Joshua and David did is to be admired, especially given the circumstances.... Any scathing criticism of men like Joshua, David is a direct assault on God himself.
The condemnation that comes to the Qu'ran starts with the fact its inspiration is man, not God. Even the "good" parts of the Qu'ran are evil... Content for the most part isn't relevant...
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/1/2008 3:07:43 PM
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tracydolls
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This where I believe some/Moslems Arabs fit in
Gen 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
Gen 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
Our brethren.
Doe's G-D love Moslems, yes. Will some of them come to Christ, yes, all nations, tongues...
Are there some people that just see color/ and throw oh he's Moslem on there to cover it, YES.
I asked my co-worker( a 50 yr old white guy) at the start of the Iraq War, what did he think of Moslems, he said "they are just desert ni****'s. He considered himself a Christian.
We meaning people love to get the sliver's out of other's eyes but just refuse to see the moat floating around in us.
I treat them as Jesus says to do:Love thy neighbor , share the Gospel, most have never read the Book, they only know the "People of the Book.
_____________________________
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/1/2008 4:26:49 PM
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StephenJ
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But to me it still seems odd that nobody really comments on the violence in the Bible, the slaying of people for being idol worshipers.
What about Muslims who believe in the idea that religion should not be by compulsion?
< Message edited by StephenJ -- 5/1/2008 4:36:15 PM >
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/1/2008 4:40:43 PM
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tracydolls
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quote:
But to me it still seems odd that nobody really comments on the violence in the Bible, the slaying of people for being idol worshipers.
You want me to comment?
Ok, G-D ordained it. Just like Slavery. If I got the correct meaning of ordained right.
Ordain:
To invest with ministerial or priestly authority; confer holy orders on.
To authorize as a rabbi.
To order by virtue of superior authority; decree or enact.
To prearrange unalterably; predestine.
Any thing you see is ordained by G-D. G-D was not sleep when Mohammad came with the sword. He was'nt sleep when the Crusades or Hitler came. He ordains it all.
We are to do as Jesus did, turn the other cheek..... love......
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1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/1/2008 4:42:00 PM
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tracydolls
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quote:
What about Muslims who believe in the idea that religion should not be by compulsion?
I gotta look up compulsion, brb
COMPULSION. The forcible inducement to act.
Well Christians, Moslems, noone should not be forcing anyone to do anything.
< Message edited by tracydolls -- 5/1/2008 4:49:15 PM >
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1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/1/2008 5:08:19 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephenJ
But to me it still seems odd that nobody really comments on the violence in the Bible, the slaying of people for being idol worshipers.
Because it's understood that the violence is God's wrath upon those who sin against Him...
quote:
What about Muslims who believe in the idea that religion should not be by compulsion?
Doesn't change the fact their belief system is inherently evil and stumbling block to the truth, not a crooked means to the Truth as some wish to believe... Islam is not a launching pad to the Truth aimed in the wrong direction, it's a complete lie that has nothing but comtempt for the Truth. It's nothing short of Spiritual slavery to those in it and only the Truth of God's word will break that bind...
John
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 5/1/2008 5:54:52 PM >
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/1/2008 5:13:37 PM
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Qtman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephenJ
But to me it still seems odd that nobody really comments on the violence in the Bible, the slaying of people for being idol worshipers.
Because it's understood that the violence is God's wrath upon those who sin against Him...
quote:
What about Muslims who believe in the idea that religion should not be by compulsion?
Doesn't change the fact their belief system is inherently evil and stumbling block to the truth, not a crooked means to the Truth as some wish to believe... Islam is not a launching pad to the Truth aimed in the wrong direction, it's a complete that has nothing but comtempt for the truth. It's nothing short of Spiritual slavery to those in it and only the Truth of God's word will break that bind...
John
So true John.
and BTW God did not ordain Hitler, the crusades or Mohammed. Allowed it yes. Ordained it no.
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Please Remember our Military Past and Present. ALL gave some, SOME gave all.
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/1/2008 5:53:02 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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God raised Pharaoh to power... He was an evil ruler...
John
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/1/2008 6:06:04 PM
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tracydolls
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quote:
and BTW God did not ordain Hitler, the crusades or Mohammed. Allowed it yes. Ordained it no.
Ordain-
quote:
To prearrange unalterably; predestine.
< Message edited by tracydolls -- 5/1/2008 6:12:51 PM >
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1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/1/2008 6:07:32 PM
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tracydolls
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quote:
Doesn't change the fact their belief system is inherently evil and stumbling block to the truth, not a crooked means to the Truth as some wish to believe... Islam is not a launching pad to the Truth aimed in the wrong direction, it's a complete lie that has nothing but comtempt for the Truth. It's nothing short of Spiritual slavery to those in it and only the Truth of God's word will break that bind...
Agreed.
God did raise Pharoah and hardened his heart towards Moses..........?
Hab 1:6 For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs.
Hab 1:7 They are terrible and dreadful: their judgment and their dignity shall proceed of themselves.
Isa 26:12 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.
I guess we can debate ordain or raise or allow,
I think He allows/raises/ordains it all.
< Message edited by tracydolls -- 5/1/2008 6:17:58 PM >
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1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/1/2008 6:35:38 PM
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StephenJ
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But aren't there many freedom loving Muslims in the west who oppose the ideas of terrorist groups saying that religion should not be forced on people?
And aren't there many Muslims who believe that the battles their prophet engaged in were unique in a historical context (again like many Jews and Christians view the fighting in the old testament) and can't be directly applied to today?
I've even heard many Muslim leaders reject the ideas of Al Queda and other groups because they don't believe that the required circumstances for holy war have been reached. Many believe that such a thing is only suppouse to be defensive.
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/1/2008 6:43:22 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephenJ
But aren't there many freedom loving Muslims in the west who oppose the ideas of terrorist groups saying that religion should not be forced on people?
And aren't there many Muslims who believe that the battles their prophet engaged in were unique in a historical context (again like many Jews and Christians view the fighting in the old testament) and can't be directly applied to today?
I've even heard many Muslim leaders reject the ideas of Al Queda and other groups because they don't believe that the required circumstances for holy war have been reached. Many believe that such a thing is only suppouse to be defensive.
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
That is how far even the "good" are from the Truth...
John
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/1/2008 7:43:07 PM
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tracydolls
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quote:
But aren't there many freedom loving Muslims in the west who oppose the ideas of terrorist groups saying that religion should not be forced on people?
And aren't there many Muslims who believe that the battles their prophet engaged in were unique in a historical context (again like many Jews and Christians view the fighting in the old testament) and can't be directly applied to today?
I've even heard many Muslim leaders reject the ideas of Al Queda and other groups because they don't believe that the required circumstances for holy war have been reached. Many believe that such a thing is only suppouse to be defensive.
I really can't say I know what Moslems think, I'm not one. Don't really study them like that.
I give EVERYONE my grandmothers litmus test: do they got Jesus.
Jesus said turn the other cheek... so I don't believe in the defend my self either. I have defended myself at times in my life.
All battles are unique in a historical way. Anything in the Bible can be applied today.
_____________________________
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/1/2008 7:51:00 PM
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Kath
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Moving from Morality/Ethics to The Bible
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/1/2008 10:57:26 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
I've even heard many Muslim leaders reject the ideas of Al Queda and other groups because they don't believe that the required circumstances for holy war have been reached. Many believe that such a thing is only suppouse to be defensive.
But don't the more radical Muslims call these people invidels? Would take a Christian scholar who knows the Islamic faith fowards/backwards to answer your question,
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The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/1/2008 11:01:45 PM
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colliefan
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another thought: no where in the NT are we commanded to committ the acts of ethnic violence depicted in the OT.
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The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/2/2008 8:05:00 AM
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Wild-Rose
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quote:
And aren't there many Muslims who believe that the battles their prophet engaged in were unique in a historical context
Your comparison fails because you are comparing our God Jehovah, the Lord God Almighty to a god who is not a god. And you are comparing the true prophets to someone who is not and never was a prophet. He only claimed to be and then he did what he wanted to do. He was not getting direction from God.
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Wild-Rose
Rejoice that your name is written in heaven. Luke 10:20
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/2/2008 9:22:27 AM
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timf
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But to me it still seems odd that nobody really comments on the violence in the Bible, the slaying of people for being idol worshipers.
God promised the land of Canaan to Abraham. Abraham noticed that there were people already living there (the Canaanites). God said that they were going to be all exterminated for their evil, but they had not yet done enough evil to warrant this type of extermination (similar to the flood). It would be over 400 years before Moses brought the Israelites out of Egypt and started to execute God's justice.
When Israel began to offend God (because of the practices they adopted from the Canaanities), God brought the Assyrians and the Babylonians to punish Israel.
The Bible describes the justice of God and the reasons. Islam seems to attack the weak or vulnerable to advance its control and only later thinks of reasons why its victims "deserved" their fate.
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/2/2008 4:28:49 PM
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StephenJ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: timf
But to me it still seems odd that nobody really comments on the violence in the Bible, the slaying of people for being idol worshipers.
God promised the land of Canaan to Abraham. Abraham noticed that there were people already living there (the Canaanites). God said that they were going to be all exterminated for their evil, but they had not yet done enough evil to warrant this type of extermination (similar to the flood). It would be over 400 years before Moses brought the Israelites out of Egypt and started to execute God's justice.
When Israel began to offend God (because of the practices they adopted from the Canaanities), God brought the Assyrians and the Babylonians to punish Israel.
The Bible describes the justice of God and the reasons. Islam seems to attack the weak or vulnerable to advance its control and only later thinks of reasons why its victims "deserved" their fate.
Wouldn't a Muslim say that in the early days Islam was a persecuted minority religion, and what was done was done in self defence? Like when they were pushed out of Mecca during the flight (which I think either Ramadan or Eid commemorates?)
And I don't see what's really accomplished with the "Their wrong, we're right, deal with it" mindset that some people seem to be advocating. A Muslim person would say the same thing. I think we have to move beyond that honestly?
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RE: Religious violence: Condemned in the Qu'ran but pra... - 5/2/2008 5:13:40 PM
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Wild-Rose
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quote:
And I don't see what's really accomplished with the "Their wrong, we're right, deal with it" mindset that some people seem to be advocating. A Muslim person would say the same thing. I think we have to move beyond that honestly?
We're not debating with a Muslim person. Didn't you say you are a Christian? I'm not sure what you want us to do "moving beyond" so to speak. Are you saying that " All paths lead to God" type religion? Are you saying that they are correct also?
It also sounds as if you are holding the Muslim scriptures in equal regard with the Bible. Correct me if I'm wrong.
< Message edited by Wild-Rose -- 5/2/2008 5:29:06 PM >
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Rejoice that your name is written in heaven. Luke 10:20
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