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Peter's Trance - 6/30/2008 8:39:22 PM
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drfuss
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Acts 10:9-16
"9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: 10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, 11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. 14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven."(KJV).
The scripture says Peter fell into a trance. During the trance, Peter responds to God by saying "Not so Lord,.....". My question is: Did Peter actively respond to God? Or did Peter see himself in the trance responding to God?
Any thoughts on this?
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RE: Peter's Trance - 7/1/2008 1:58:46 AM
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Bluethread
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This is a minefield and I am reluctant to be the first to step in it, especially since you've framed the question in light of whether this was a vision, which Peter might have consciencely reesponded to, or a dream that would have had been a subconscience message. This is a strongly held proof text for some. Therefore, any discussion without acknowledging that would require us to work around an extremely large elephant.
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RE: Peter's Trance - 7/1/2008 3:10:31 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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Question (A): Can we trust the Bible when it calls the experience a "trance"?
Question (B): What then, is the definition of a trance?
Question (C): if the Greek calls it a trance and the English bible calls it a trance, what would the definition of a trance necessitate as Peter's response?
Those three questions are the three you should ask to get an answer.
Adam
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RE: Peter's Trance - 7/1/2008 1:11:26 PM
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DaveW
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(A) what the bible calls "trance" in English, the Greek has this:
(B) G1611 ἔκστασις ek'-stas-is
From G1839; a displacement of the mind, that is, bewilderment, “ecstasy”: - + be amazed, amazement, astonishment, trance.
(C) As to the response, it does not really matter if it was a physical reply or one in the vision. The result is the same.
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RE: Peter's Trance - 7/1/2008 8:46:10 PM
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drfuss
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
(A) what the bible calls "trance" in English, the Greek has this:
(B) G1611 ἔκστασις ek'-stas-is
From G1839; a displacement of the mind, that is, bewilderment, “ecstasy”: - + be amazed, amazement, astonishment, trance.
(C) As to the response, it does not really matter if it was a physical reply or one in the vision. The result is the same.
drfuss: I agree, the result is the same. However, It does matter if you are studying the life of Peter.
Would Peter say no three times to a message from the Lord? Was the Jewish laws so overriding to Peter that he would say no to the Lord three times?
On the other hand, if Peter saw in a trance that he said no to the Lord three times, that could just be a message as to his reluctance to accept what he was about to experience.
Note that immediately afterwards, the Lord told him to go with the gentiles, and he did so without question; yet he questioned the Lord during or in the trance.. I know that this is just speculation, but I think Peter saying no could have been a part of the trance.
Any thoughts on this?
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RE: Peter's Trance - 7/1/2008 10:24:25 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
Would Peter say no three times to a message from the Lord? Was the Jewish laws so overriding to Peter that he would say no to the Lord three times? There is a story in the Talmud (written oral tradition) of a rabbinic counsel making a decision on the halacha (how a law/ordinance is to be fulfilled) is to be done. All are in agreement except one rabbi. He knows he is right and w ill not be dissuaded. He prays and does miracles to prove he is right. No one else is convinced. He prays again and a voice from heaven comes and tells everyone that he is right. The leader of the council then argues with the voice that comes from heaven that as the majority, the rest of the council has the say so.
Look at most of the Pharisees who saw Jesus' miracles and heard his teaching. They argued it from the start. So saying no to a voice from heaven is not an unheard of thing in Judaism.
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RE: Peter's Trance - 7/2/2008 12:13:16 PM
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drfuss
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Acts 11:5
'I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me: "
drfuss: A vision within a trance? Hmmm... Could that mean that Peter could have been a third party to this message? It is a good possibility that Peter saw himself responding. Who knows?
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RE: Peter's Trance - 7/2/2008 12:21:38 PM
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DaveW
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You are overly analysing it.
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RE: Peter's Trance - 7/2/2008 6:07:44 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
Would Peter say no three times to a message from the Lord? Was the Jewish laws so overriding to Peter that he would say no to the Lord three times?
Remember, he denighed Yeshua(Jesus) three times, Yeshua asked him if he loved Him three times and Yeshua commanded him to feed His sheep three times. Also, it is common in Scripture to see things repeated three times for emphasis. Joseph told Pharoah, (Gen 41:32)
"The reason the dream was given to Pharaoh in two forms is that the matter has been firmly decided by God, and God will do it soon"
How much more important would it be if it is repeated three times.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Peter's Trance - 7/2/2008 10:24:10 PM
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DaveW
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That repetition that blue spoke of is a cultural thing with the Hebraic languages. Say something once and it gets the point across. Say it twice and it is strongly emphasized. Truly truly I say to you Say it three times and you get extreme emphasis: Holy holy holy is the Lord
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RE: Peter's Trance - 7/3/2008 2:20:35 PM
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LBolt
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Could it be that there were 3 people coming to him to inquire his presence at Cornelius' house. 
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