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Obama's Marxism? - 4/12/2008 11:01:28 PM
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Isaiah29
Posts: 86
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Greetings in Christ
I've been thinking somewhat deeply about what Obama said concerning small town people clinging to guns, religion, and xenophobia as a means to vent their frustrations at their economic hardships. Here is the statement he made to a large gathering of millionaires (and billionaires) at the home of Ann and Gordon Getty on Billionaire's Row in San Francisco on April 6, 2008:
“You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them,” Obama said. “And they fell through the Clinton Administration, and the Bush Administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it’s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." Barack Obama (as reported by Mayhill Fowler at Huffington Post)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mayhill-fowler/obama-no-surprise-that-ha_b_96188.html
I knew I had heard these sentiments expressed before, but I could not put my finger on it. Then I remembered that in one of the history classes I took at Brown University, the professor had said practically the same thing when we were studying Hegelian dialectics, only he was quoting a famous historian. So I did a little digging and sure enough, came up with the quote. See if this rings a bell:
"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people". Karl Marx in "Contribution to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right"(Feb. 1844)
http://www3.baylor.edu/~Scott_Moore/texts/Marx_Contr_Crit.html
Now, I am not for a minute stating that Obama is a Marxist, even though his mother, his father, his stepfather, his college advisor and most of his friends are. I truly believe that Obama is his own man. Nevertheless, his statements do seem to belie some Marxist tendencies, namely that people would cling to religion out of economic despair, rather than out of spiritual longing for a relationship with God. Marxists are fundamentally materialistic and see people acting out of materialistic wants and needs. In short, if someone is religious, it must be because that person is responding to some form of material (ie. physical, economic, social) oppression or frustration. Hence religion (eg. Judeo-Christianity) is the "sigh of the oppressed" (according to Marx) and clinging to it is a way to "explain their frustration" (according to Obama). Although this is a somewhat simplistic condensation of Marxism, it is still fundametally correct. Indeed, according to Marx, and perhaps Obama, "Man makes religion, religion does not make man" (Ibid)
The question remains: does Obama really believe his Marxists statements, or was he simply pandering to the socialist billionaire elites whom he was courting? The problem then becomes that he was either being disingenuous in order to gain their support, which makes him a liar and a hypocrite, or he truly believes that small town America clings to guns, religion and xenophobia out of misplaced bitterness at their economic hardship, which makes him a dyed in the wool Marxist who will not likely engender an atmosphere conducive to fostering the capitalism on which small town economic prosperity depends, or reviving the Judeo-Christianity upon which it receives its spiritual nourishment.
And of course, there is the third least palatable alternative. He could be a liar, a hypocrite, and a Marxist! So any way you look at it, America, the bastion of the capitalistic, Judeo-Christian world, is screwed if Obama ever gets elected President of these United States.
In Christ,
Ariel
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RE: Obama's Marxism? - 4/13/2008 8:25:40 AM
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csl7037
Posts: 640
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: online
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What will it take to get people in this country to go back to HS Civics and realize we're being driven like cattle into Socialism. They want free this and free that and all these things they're "entitled to" and it makes me nuts. We're in love with Marxism in this country and most people aren't even smart enough to know what it is - which may be beause of their HS Civ class!
They are socialists and we'd better wake up fast.
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RE: Obama's Marxism? - 4/13/2008 9:38:59 AM
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TomTurn
Posts: 758
Joined: 3/13/2008
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"truth is, most Americans don't want much. Folks don't want the whole pie. ... The truth is, in order to get things like universal health care and revamped education system then someone is going to have to give up a piece of their pie so someone else can have more." - Michelle Obama
..........
Tell you what you America hating Marxist, I will decide what I want and do not want. Know we have Believers (a few on this site) that worship your husband as if he were the 2nd coming of Jesus but for a long time the world has been full of "Chrisitans" who use Christ as a tool for their thievery.
TomTurn, "a typical white person"
..........
"This is Kim Jong-Il dressed up with a bit of Oprah Winfrey dressing." - Mark Steyn
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RE: Obama's Marxism? - 4/13/2008 10:36:34 AM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3312
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Reminds me, of the scene in " A Few Good Men", Jack Nickolson saying " You want the truth, you can't handle the truth!"
quote:
ORIGINAL: TomTurn
"truth is, most Americans don't want much. Folks don't want the whole pie. ... The truth is, in order to get things like universal health care and revamped education system then someone is going to have to give up a piece of their pie so someone else can have more." - Michelle Obama
..........
Tell you what you America hating Marxist, I will decide what I want and do not want. Know we have Believers (a few on this site) that worship your husband as if he were the 2nd coming of Jesus but for a long time the world has been full of "Chrisitans" who use Christ as a tool for their thievery.
TomTurn, "a typical white person"
..........
"This is Kim Jong-Il dressed up with a bit of Oprah Winfrey dressing." - Mark Steyn
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Obama's Marxism? - 4/13/2008 11:55:34 AM
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csl7037
Posts: 640
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TomTurn
"truth is, most Americans don't want much. Folks don't want the whole pie. ... The truth is, in order to get things like universal health care and revamped education system then someone is going to have to give up a piece of their pie so someone else can have more." - Michelle Obama
Uuuugh! I don't even know where to start!!!!!!!
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RE: Obama's Marxism? - 4/13/2008 12:26:00 PM
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dinomax55
Posts: 251
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From: O-H-I-O
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So Obama is a Marxist now? What's next- someone will find a shrine to Stalin or Pol Pot in his home? Whatever..
Looking though these political forums, I find the amount of venom spewed by some here is disappointing.. Is it not possible to compare the candidates on the issues? As for the name-calling, why don't you just call him a monkey and get it over with? I get the sense that that's what you really mean- I don't see either McCain or Clinton getting as such intense 'scrutiny' on these pages..
_____________________________
We can never achieve perfection.. but if we chase perfection we will catch excellence.
-Vince Lombardi
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RE: Obama's Marxism? - 4/13/2008 12:32:36 PM
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TomTurn
Posts: 758
Joined: 3/13/2008
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quote:
Is it not possible to compare the candidates on the issues?
Show me what issues Obama is not a socialist / marxist on?
quote:
why don't you just call him a monkey and get it over with? I get the sense that that's what you really mean
Do not like Obama, then you are a reacist. What an old tired call
quote:
I don't see either McCain or Clinton getting as such intense 'scrutiny' on these pages..
Not as new to the game as Obama so much discussed over the years but feel free to start a conversation and people will join in.
_____________________________
TomTurn, "a typical white person from a small town but not in a Christian nation, who clings to God, owns guns, actually listened to the pastor for 22 years, whose life did start at conception and whose mother was punished with 3 babies"
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RE: Obama's Marxism? - 4/13/2008 12:34:14 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 427
Joined: 6/21/2006
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quote:
Show me what issues Obama is not a socialist / marxist on?
Um, Socialism is an integral part of the American economic system. Where have you been?
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RE: Obama's Marxism? - 4/13/2008 12:39:13 PM
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TomTurn
Posts: 758
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
quote:
Show me what issues Obama is not a socialist / marxist on?
Um, Socialism is an integral part of the American economic system. Where have you been?
So I am to be quite about the evil of socialism?
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RE: Obama's Marxism? - 4/13/2008 12:40:11 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 427
Joined: 6/21/2006
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Social Security and Medicare benefits are evil?
Oh, please....
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RE: Obama's Marxism? - 4/13/2008 12:43:25 PM
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TomTurn
Posts: 758
Joined: 3/13/2008
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quote:
Social Security and Medicare benefits are evil?
So tell me, how is SS and medicare working so far?
Thievery under any name is still thievery.
< Message edited by TomTurn -- 4/13/2008 12:50:14 PM >
_____________________________
TomTurn, "a typical white person from a small town but not in a Christian nation, who clings to God, owns guns, actually listened to the pastor for 22 years, whose life did start at conception and whose mother was punished with 3 babies"
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RE: Obama's Marxism? - 4/13/2008 12:48:10 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 427
Joined: 6/21/2006
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quote:
So tell me, how is SS and Medicare working so for?
So far, despite inherent problems in system, both benefit packages are moving forward, as are those benefits paid to US military vets with funds provided by American taxpayers.
Should we pull the plug on those as well?
Secondly, are you under the opinion the the income/state/property tax is "thievery" as well?
Just trying to figure out where you're coming from.
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RE: Obama's Marxism? - 4/13/2008 12:49:52 PM
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dinomax55
Posts: 251
Joined: 6/22/2007
From: O-H-I-O
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Luthor? my fault.. but I was really thinking of Apocalypse or Red Skull..
_____________________________
We can never achieve perfection.. but if we chase perfection we will catch excellence.
-Vince Lombardi
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RE: Obama's Marxism? - 4/13/2008 12:57:22 PM
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dinomax55
Posts: 251
Joined: 6/22/2007
From: O-H-I-O
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quote:
why don't you just call him a monkey and get it over with? I get the sense that that's what you really mean
Do not like Obama, then you are a reacist. What an old tired call
So you don't think some people might have that sentiment? I'm not naive enough to believe that. Some of the criticism is over the top.
_____________________________
We can never achieve perfection.. but if we chase perfection we will catch excellence.
-Vince Lombardi
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RE: Obama's Marxism? - 4/13/2008 1:33:02 PM
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csl7037
Posts: 640
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
quote:
So tell me, how is SS and Medicare working so for?
So far, despite inherent problems in system, both benefit packages are moving forward, as are those benefits paid to US military vets with funds provided by American taxpayers.
Should we pull the plug on those as well?
Secondly, are you under the opinion the the income/state/property tax is "thievery" as well?
Just trying to figure out where you're coming from.
moving forward? moving toward total collapse, you mean! military benefits are much more to be likened to employee benefits in a corporate setting...it's their benefits package and it's what we need to give them to keep them (although I don't know why they do what they do for the little reward they get). How can you honestly compare military and veterans benefits to Social Security and Medicare??
And, yes, my dh is in the other room now going over our taxes one last time - feels very mucg like someone has a gun to our heads, I have to say.
And, for the record, I think Hillary is just as much a socialist and a Marxist and while, like Obama people aren't smart enough to recognize that and to see her for the danger she is either. But, unlike Obama, she's got enough other irritating qualities that people aren't being snowed or hypnotized by her en mass like they are Obama. Why target Obama? Because if you are able to see him for what he is it's absolutely maddening to see people flocking to him like the Pide Piper!
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RE: Obama's Marxism? - 4/13/2008 1:43:23 PM
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TomTurn
Posts: 758
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quote:
So far, despite inherent problems in system, both benefit packages are moving forward
And the service provided in return for the funds is????
Moving forward as in growing larger?
Both are a socialist retistribution of wealth
quote:
as are those benefits paid to US military vets with funds provided by American taxpayers.
Should we pull the plug on those as well?
Not all funds provided to veterans are a good thing. Some are good and needed others are a waste and undeserved.
quote:
Secondly, are you under the opinion the the income/state/property tax is "thievery" as well?
Many taxes are "forced legal" thievery or "needed" ones reach a point where they become so.
quote:
Just trying to figure out where you're coming from.
Have about 25k in my checking savings at the monent. Whom do you think is more wise in deciding where it should spent/used, me or government?
Question for you.
My total yearly income from my labor is represented by $1. How much of that should go to taxes, be redistrbuted (as michelle obama says, give up more of my pie becasue I do not want it) and why?
_____________________________
TomTurn, "a typical white person from a small town but not in a Christian nation, who clings to God, owns guns, actually listened to the pastor for 22 years, whose life did start at conception and whose mother was punished with 3 babies"
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RE: Obama's Marxism? - 4/13/2008 1:53:05 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 427
Joined: 6/21/2006
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quote:
Whom do you think is more wise in deciding where it should spent/used, me or government?
The money you net is your own. Spend or save it however you like.
quote:
Question for you. My total yearly income from my labor is represented by $1. How much of that should go to taxes, be redistributed (as michelle obama says, give up more of my pie because I do not want it) and why?
Last time I checked, Michelle Obama was not running for president. So I don't care what she thinks about tax policy.
As for how much should be surrendered per dollar for taxation, it's a pretty disingenuous question considering the majority of taxes paid out per citizen are local property taxes, versus Federal or State.
But for Federal rates, I just don't know how high or low the tax rates should be. I'm not an economist.
Listen, I'm no fan of taxes either.
But I realize that without them, the operations of all public services grind to a halt. And without them (police/fire, education, public works, military, health programs, etc) we might as well be living in the 18th century.
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RE: Obama's Marxism? - 4/13/2008 2:05:12 PM
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TomTurn
Posts: 758
Joined: 3/13/2008
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quote:
The money you net is your own. Spend or save it however you like.
The gross was not mine? Who was wiser to use that gross?
quote:
Last time I checked, Michelle Obama was not running for president. So I don't care what she thinks about tax policy.
People said the same about Hillary, yet here we are. Maybe you should care?
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the majority of taxes paid out per citizen are local property taxes, versus Federal or State .
My property tax for 07 was $1,200, local taxes were maybe $2,000 my fed and state together was about $44,000
You are correct, you are not an economist
quote:
Listen, I'm no fan of taxes either.
But I realize that without them, the operations of all public services grind to a halt. And without them (police/fire, education, public works, military, health programs, etc) we might as well be living in the 18th century.
But do you fight taxes? Are do yo see all taxes paid as being OK.
fire - many fire departments are private and do just as good of a job
public works - Golden Gate Bridge was built and is maintained by private funds. It can be done.
education - yea, taxes are doing a great job there
military - one of the few that could be considered worthy
health programs - well we see what has been done so far, trust me it will not get better. If you think heath care is expensive now, wait until it is free.
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RE: Obama's Marxism? - 4/13/2008 3:05:04 PM
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Isaiah29
Posts: 86
Joined: 5/8/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
quote:
So tell me, how is SS and Medicare working so for?
So far, despite inherent problems in system, both benefit packages are moving forward, as are those benefits paid to US military vets with funds provided by American taxpayers.
Should we pull the plug on those as well?
Secondly, are you under the opinion the the income/state/property tax is "thievery" as well?
Just trying to figure out where you're coming from.
moving forward? moving toward total collapse, you mean! military benefits are much more to be likened to employee benefits in a corporate setting...it's their benefits package and it's what we need to give them to keep them (although I don't know why they do what they do for the little reward they get). How can you honestly compare military and veterans benefits to Social Security and Medicare??
And, yes, my dh is in the other room now going over our taxes one last time - feels very mucg like someone has a gun to our heads, I have to say.
And, for the record, I think Hillary is just as much a socialist and a Marxist and while, like Obama people aren't smart enough to recognize that and to see her for the danger she is either. But, unlike Obama, she's got enough other irritating qualities that people aren't being snowed or hypnotized by her en mass like they are Obama. Why target Obama? Because if you are able to see him for what he is it's absolutely maddening to see people flocking to him like the Pide Piper!
Greeting csl7037,
I agree that Hillary is every bit as much a socialist/Marxist that Obama is, and yes, she does lack Obama's charisma to "hoodwink and bamboozle" the voter into thinking she's not. What makes Obama so dangerous is that he is such an effective liar, much as Bill Clinton was. Hillary seems to lack the oratory skills Obama possesses, being able to connect with people on an emotional level so they don't look too deeply into his real agenda, or discover his real persona. Obama tells people what they want to hear, eg. hope and change, unity and togetherness, but his record in the Illinois State Legislature and his brief tenure in the Senate speak otherwise.
Obama is all for dividing the country along class, race, and partisanship lines; working poor vs corporate elite, black victimization vs. white oppression, liberal (or "progressive" as he prefers to be called) vs. conservative, democrat vs republican, pro-choice vs. pro-life. In all these instances it has been Obama's way or the highway, there has been no compromise, no middle ground.
When the Illinois State Legislature attempted to pass the Born Alive Infant Protection Act, a bill which would have prevented babies which were born alive to be killed through starvation or other means, (otherwise known as live birth abortions), Obama opposed it, even after the US Senate passed identical legislation. His rationale was that he did not like the way the bill was worded. (see Jill Stanek's article in World Net Daily on Obama' 10 stated reasons for rejecting the bill:
http://www.wnd.com/index.php/index.php?pageId=45553.
Since Obama has been in the Senate, his voting record (such as it is since he is seldom ever there) has been strictly partisan, and is the most liberal in the entire Senate, and that is saying a lot. In every instance he favors greater government control over all aspects of industry and individuality, meaning larger government and greater redistribution of wealth, mostly from the shrinking middle class.
Because of their various abilities to shelter their wealth through foundations and trusts, the wealthy elite will remain largely untouched by the redistribution mechanisms (taxes), nevertheless most will still be at the mercy of an expanded federal bureacracy, mandatory cap and trade policies resulting in higher energy costs, ethanol subsidies resulting in higher food costs, higher taxes used to subsidize "green technologies", higher taxes to pay for universal health care and higher education, plus mandatory community service. This is boilerplate marxism and it is not surprising in the least that Obama is all for it. What does surprise me is that so few people in the media seem to pick up on it. In Obama's perfect world "all pigs are created equal. only some pigs are created more equal than others" (George Orwell, 1984)
In Christ,
Ariel
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RE: Obama's Marxism? - 4/13/2008 3:35:21 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2165
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
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quote:
So you don't think some people might have that sentiment? I'm not naive enough to believe that. Some of the criticism is over the top.
There are some who might have that sentiment but they are far in the minority. Can you give ONE SPECIFIC examples of criticism that has been over the top? If fact he has not been thoroughly vetted simply becuase of his race.
One cannot use his middle name even though if elected he will use it in his oath of office? One cannot critise his sweetheart land deals from a known mobster?. One cannot critise his friendship with someone who attempted to blow up the Pentagon? One cannot critise his membership in a racist church?
Prov 26:24 - 26 (ESV) Whoever hates disguises himself with his lips and harbors deceit in his heart; when he speaks graciously, believe him not, for there are seven abominations in his heart; though his hatred be covered with deception, his wickedness will be exposed in the assembly.
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Obama's Marxism? - 4/13/2008 4:26:32 PM
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csl7037
Posts: 640
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: online
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quote:
My property tax for 07 was $1,200, local taxes were maybe $2,000 my fed and state together was about $44,000
Even if you factor in local sales taxes that are tacked on for the outrageously extravagant football stadium or whatever other pet project they're wasting our money on, it wont compare with what the Feds are gobbling up and squandering.
quote:
If you think heath care is expensive now, wait until it is free.
I'm gonna use that line!
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RE: Obama's Marxism? - 4/13/2008 7:09:21 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 427
Joined: 6/21/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
The gross was not mine? Who was wiser to use that gross?
This is a childish question. Taxes are a fact of life. Without them, the country collapses at all levels, especially local. Yes, they need to be controlled, but what you seem to be advocating is an abolition of income taxes entirely. And I hate to break it to you, but that just ain't gonna happen.
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My property tax for 07 was $1,200
Congrats. Mine were $4600 for 2007, and are going up again.
quote:
local taxes were maybe $2,000 my fed and state together was about $44,000
Where the heck do you live? I only paid $7800 between my state and federal taxes, and got a refund of $1800. So in all, my combined state/fed taxes were only $6K.
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fire - many fire departments are private and do just as good of a job
Have never seen a private fire department, and I'd rather not have a private local police force. Thanks for asking, though.
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Golden Gate Bridge was built and is maintained by private funds. It can be done.
Are you serious? Local public works include water/sewer infrastructure, and road/bridge maintenance. Do you seriously believe those can be privately funded? If so, who is paying? Bill Gates?
quote:
education - yea, taxes are doing a great job there
I'd rather my property taxes not go to as many schools either, but I always make a point to vote in elections versus tax hikes I don't want. But if my position loses, I pay. That's just life.
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