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Just curious - 4/16/2008 7:49:36 PM
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vixir
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Lately I've been hearing a lot about what's been going on in the world today, as proof that the end is truly near. Although the world is pretty rotten (worse than in the past, in my opinion), but what exactly has taken place to make people think that the world is near it's end? I'm not doubting anyone, I just wanna know so that I can be enlightened.
Thanks!
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RE: Just curious - 4/16/2008 8:12:04 PM
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earthless
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We have been living in the last days for over 2,000 years.
People in the 1800's thought they would not die because the world was going to end in their generation.
Also, there are excellent historical manuscripts and collections out there that show our society (even with all the evil in it) is still nowhere near what many ancient societies from centuries ago had as common day practices.
Just some food for thought......
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Just curious - 4/16/2008 9:11:35 PM
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Ntech
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Why do I think the end is here? Hmmm.
Lets just say I did something a few years ago as an attempt to prove that very question. I wasn't expecting it to succeed. But it did. And since then I have been trying to figure out why. Oh well. I'll figure it out someday. But here are my reasons to think it's already started.
Not in any particular order.
1. Matthew 24-14.
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
A fulfilled prophecy. Why? For if you apply the simplest interpretation to this prophecy you realize the requirement for the end to come is that the gospel only needed to be preached to a representative of every tribe/ethnic group/nation in the world. Anyone more is gravy. So this was fulfilled many years ago.
2. Realizing what the fig tree of Matthew 24 is and why it is important to the time of the end. And the simple answer is that the fig tree is the present day nation of Israel or ancient Judah. And verse 34 is telling us that there is a set period of time once the fig tree begins to leaf out. A generation. And considering that Psalms 90-10 seems to define a generation at 70 to 80 years it would seem that we are 60 years into the generation.
3. Understanding the messages contained in the book of Hosea.
What were these messages? That the people of Israel and Judah were unfaithful and were not fulfilling there part of the covenant of Leviticus 26. And had incurred curses because of their faithlessness.
In Ezekial 4 we are told that Israel/Ephraim had incurred a 390 year curse because of the sins they had committed. But in Hosea we are told that when the time had come to lift the curse Ephraim was still sinning. And was not repenting for those sins. So under the rules of Leviticus 26 their curse was extended 7 times. It became a 2730 year curse. And if you do the math from 725 BC you realize that this curse has just recently expired.
And Judah it was predicted would have to serve a 2000 year curse of their own.
Hosea 6.
1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.
2nd Peter 3
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Those days are 1000 year periods of time. And as I see it this 2nd curse has 20 years left in it.
Hosea 1.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
4. The book of Daniel. Daniel 8 and 11.
The prophecy that started it all for me. Approximately 20-30 years ago there was a TV preacher (now dead) who based his show on the end time prophesies of the bible. He made it interesting and I watched his show for a few years. Fast forward to 2001 and the 9-11 disaster. After hearing about it and watching one of the towers fall on a TV at a truckstop I had a 6 hour drive home and all that time to think about it. And the question came up "Was this an end time event?" So I decided that when I got home I would take a look. And I did just that. And had a rather odd experience. Something was not right with the world that day. So I gave up and decided to take a shot at it later. And the next day when I made the attempt this is what I found.
Daniel 11-2
2 And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.
And after a few seconds I realized that this was a 100% accurate description of what led up to 9-11. It was a 9-11 prophecy. So after some more thought I realized I wanted to know what was going on. So I did my homework. Did a study on the book of Daniel and did some research. And discovered a unique opportunity. A test for the end times so to speak. So I did something crazy and went for it. So let's say I'm not the boy I used to be anymore.
So ending on that cryptic note. Have a nice day.
Ntech. Member of the host since 11-2-2001.
< Message edited by Ntech -- 4/16/2008 9:46:39 PM >
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RE: Just curious - 4/22/2008 9:42:18 AM
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violinist_for_jesus
Posts: 2307
Joined: 4/20/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
We have been living in the last days for over 2,000 years.
People in the 1800's thought they would not die because the world was going to end in their generation.
Also, there are excellent historical manuscripts and collections out there that show our society (even with all the evil in it) is still nowhere near what many ancient societies from centuries ago had as common day practices.
Just some food for thought......
I do actually agree with you on that.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ntech
But here are my reasons to think it's already started.
No one's denying that we are living in the end times. Just, some people do not believe that it is imminent. (of course, none of us really know for sure)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ntech
Not in any particular order.
1. Matthew 24-14.
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
A fulfilled prophecy. Why? For if you apply the simplest interpretation to this prophecy you realize the requirement for the end to come is that the gospel only needed to be preached to a representative of every tribe/ethnic group/nation in the world. Anyone more is gravy. So this was fulfilled many years ago.
Then why does Jesus tell His disciples to preach the gospel to every creature in Mark 16 if he meant only one representative of every tribe?
Also, you do not have any proof to back up your claim that someone from every tribe or tongue in the world has heard the gospel.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ntech
2nd Peter 3
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Those days are 1000 year periods of time. And as I see it this 2nd curse has 20 years left in it.
The apostles thought that Jesus would return in their life time too. Also, your last sentence there has nothing to do with the quotation from first Peter.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ntech
Daniel 11-2
2 And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.
And after a few seconds I realized that this was a 100% accurate description of what led up to 9-11. It was a 9-11 prophecy. So after some more thought I realized I wanted to know what was going on. So I did my homework. Did a study on the book of Daniel and did some research. And discovered a unique opportunity. A test for the end times so to speak. So I did something crazy and went for it. So let's say I'm not the boy I used to be anymore.
Could you please explain how and why you think that Daniel was talking about 9/11?
You do have some good points though...intresting.
_____________________________
Zachary/19/ Single,
The coolest myspace ever
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RE: Just curious - 4/22/2008 10:19:03 AM
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bob97
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Gee vixir...how old are you? Have you taken a long hard look at the world today and everything that is going on? Is it worse then anytime you can remember? How much worse do you think it can get?
Just a few questions to help you think. 
Bob
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The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Just curious - 4/22/2008 3:36:01 PM
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Lapidoth
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Hi Bob.
I really don't like to think how bad it will get. lol.
Just waking up and watching the news is sickening enough.
As for imminent ---- NO.
As for soon ---------YES.
What a day that will be when my Saviour I shall see............
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Just curious - 4/23/2008 12:07:07 AM
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bob97
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Well, we all agree it’s pretty bad and getting worse real fast. My point is; the pace of disintegration almost seems exponential, double the time and it’s four times worse…meaning two years from now it will be four times worse then it is today and it’s pretty bad today. I know our pace of life is growing exponentially and so is the technology and all of these things place more pressure on social structure
My question is…how much more can we take? It seems like we are about ready to implode right now.
Or maybe it's just me.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Just curious - 4/23/2008 9:59:13 PM
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JordanW
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I do believe that we are living in the last days yes, but so did people back a long time ago (like some people have already stated)
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RE: Just curious - 4/24/2008 4:45:30 PM
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mvic
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Come on folks !!! Let's put some Hope in this thread.
Yes - the world is rotten. But there is more good in this world right now than there is bad.
Will it get worse? Probably.
Is there a God in control? Yes.
Are we therefore worried? Definitly not. He has conquered evil once and for all.
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http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
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RE: Just curious - 4/24/2008 4:49:33 PM
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mvic
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Message to vixir:
You're 23 - you have a whole long life ahead of you. One day, when you're old and grey, you'll look back at this thread and smile.
Don't worry. All will be well. Trust in Him.
God bless.
_____________________________
http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
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RE: Just curious - 4/24/2008 10:29:45 PM
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vixir
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It's hard to focus on the good, when all that you see on the news are bad events. Murders, rapes, child molesters, etc. But you are right... there is plenty of good in this world.
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RE: Just curious - 4/24/2008 11:29:56 PM
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bob97
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Vixir...focus on the joy in your heart and that joy will spill out into the world. God is like a force field which will hold the evil at bay.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Just curious - 4/25/2008 10:01:37 AM
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vixir
Posts: 91
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Vixir...focus on the joy in your heart and that joy will spill out into the world. God is like a force field which will hold the evil at bay.
Bob
That's a good way to think of it. Here lately, things have changed. I'm not as fearful and I'm far more trusting in God. So there's this sense of peace in my heart that hasn't been there in so long. It feels really nice and I feel completely safe knowing that God loves me and He alone is in control. It's nice to know that even Satan has to get permission from God to do his evil deeds. I bet that really upsets the little guy. lol
< Message edited by vixir -- 4/25/2008 10:08:00 AM >
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RE: Just curious - 4/25/2008 2:49:43 PM
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eschatologist
Posts: 28
Joined: 1/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: vixir
Lately I've been hearing a lot about what's been going on in the world today, as proof that the end is truly near. Although the world is pretty rotten (worse than in the past, in my opinion), but what exactly has taken place to make people think that the world is near it's end? I'm not doubting anyone, I just wanna know so that I can be enlightened.
Thanks!
The time period known as the endtimes started with Jesus' first coming and will culminate in His second coming. The Lord wants us to live our lives as though we believe He is coming back in our lifetime and that the world will end soon. The Lord has been that way with all of His children for the last 2,000 years.
One of the reasons for this, I believe is because we all only have one life to live. What we do for the Lord and what kind of life we live now will determine what kind of reward we will get in Heaven. Any one of us could die tomorrow. In that sense, we're always all living in the time of the end. Because it could be the end for any one of us. This is true, whether your talking about the Apostles and Christians of the early church, or the reformers who started the protestant reformation 500 years ago, or whether you're talking about the christians who are alive at the very end when Jesus comes back. That's why He said, "Watch, therefore,: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."
Of course, the Lord wants us to be prepared for His soon return to earth to rapture and resurrect His saints of all ages. That's why He gave us numerous signs to watch out for. The fact of the matter is we know that He has to come back soon because these signs are getting more and more fulfilled in todays modern world than they ever were.
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RE: Just curious - 4/25/2008 9:06:33 PM
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vixir
Posts: 91
Joined: 2/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: eschatologist
The time period known as the endtimes started with Jesus' first coming and will culminate in His second coming. The Lord wants us to live our lives as though we believe He is coming back in our lifetime and that the world will end soon. The Lord has been that way with all of His children for the last 2,000 years.
One of the reasons for this, I believe is because we all only have one life to live. What we do for the Lord and what kind of life we live now will determine what kind of reward we will get in Heaven. Any one of us could die tomorrow. In that sense, we're always all living in the time of the end. Because it could be the end for any one of us. This is true, whether your talking about the Apostles and Christians of the early church, or the reformers who started the protestant reformation 500 years ago, or whether you're talking about the christians who are alive at the very end when Jesus comes back. That's why He said, "Watch, therefore,: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."
Of course, the Lord wants us to be prepared for His soon return to earth to rapture and resurrect His saints of all ages. That's why He gave us numerous signs to watch out for. The fact of the matter is we know that He has to come back soon because these signs are getting more and more fulfilled in todays modern world than they ever were.
Very nicely put! Thank you! :)
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RE: Just curious - 4/25/2008 10:01:32 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 624
Joined: 3/30/2008
From: Mpls, MN
Status: online
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There are specific verses that have been fulfilled.
9-11 was one of them. It is Rev. 18 That happened almost 7 years ago.
There are many,many more. The world is getting darker. Do we know the time and hour, NO. but we are close.
Can it get worse, yes, imagine more food shortages, more wars, especially over resources, police state, more natural disasters. IT is and will get far worse.
_____________________________
Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
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RE: Just curious - 4/26/2008 12:05:22 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1622
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Tracy...you are really hung up on America being Babylon but you have to understand that Babylon is Jerusalem and the city don't fall until after the middle of the last (70th) week.
You believe what you want but I have to correct you...sorry.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Just curious - 4/26/2008 8:24:15 AM
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Ntech
Posts: 66
Joined: 5/3/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: violinist_for_jesus
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
We have been living in the last days for over 2,000 years.
People in the 1800's thought they would not die because the world was going to end in their generation.
Also, there are excellent historical manuscripts and collections out there that show our society (even with all the evil in it) is still nowhere near what many ancient societies from centuries ago had as common day practices.
Just some food for thought......
I do actually agree with you on that.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ntech
But here are my reasons to think it's already started.
No one's denying that we are living in the end times. Just, some people do not believe that it is imminent. (of course, none of us really know for sure)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ntech
Not in any particular order.
1. Matthew 24-14.
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
A fulfilled prophecy. Why? For if you apply the simplest interpretation to this prophecy you realize the requirement for the end to come is that the gospel only needed to be preached to a representative of every tribe/ethnic group/nation in the world. Anyone more is gravy. So this was fulfilled many years ago.
Then why does Jesus tell His disciples to preach the gospel to every creature in Mark 16 if he meant only one representative of every tribe?
Also, you do not have any proof to back up your claim that someone from every tribe or tongue in the world has heard the gospel.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ntech
2nd Peter 3
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Those days are 1000 year periods of time. And as I see it this 2nd curse has 20 years left in it.
The apostles thought that Jesus would return in their life time too. Also, your last sentence there has nothing to do with the quotation from first Peter.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ntech
Daniel 11-2
2 And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.
And after a few seconds I realized that this was a 100% accurate description of what led up to 9-11. It was a 9-11 prophecy. So after some more thought I realized I wanted to know what was going on. So I did my homework. Did a study on the book of Daniel and did some research. And discovered a unique opportunity. A test for the end times so to speak. So I did something crazy and went for it. So let's say I'm not the boy I used to be anymore.
Could you please explain how and why you think that Daniel was talking about 9/11?
You do have some good points though...intresting.
***************************************************************************
Questions. Why is Matthew 24-14 fulfilled?
Occams razor. The simplest explaination is usually the truth. The verse says this.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Nations can also be interpretated here as tribes or ethnic groups. It simply wasn't possible to fulfill this verse until the late 19th early 20th century. But if you interpretet this to mean all people in the world then short of a supernatural event its simply not possible to fulfill. What about people in the middle of Islamic countries where is punishable by death to preach Christianity? Or extremly remote areas of the world?
Secondly this is the first fig leaf of the prophecy. But if the rebirth of Israel is also a fig leaf then it has to be open. And the rebirth of Israel is predicted in Ezekial and Hosea and Matthew as well. It has to be open!
Second question. Are the days of Hosea 6 1000 year periods of time as indicated by 2nd Peter 3-8? That verse in 2nd Peter is a restatement of Psalms 90-4.
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
And it is known that time statements in the bible can be coded so that the casual observer would not understand them properly. So a day being equal to a 1000 years is quite possible with Hosea 6. Now look at history. The 2nd temple was destroyed in 70 AD and the Diaspora started in 135AD after the Bar Kokba revolt. Then Israel was reborn in 1948. And the prophecy says they would be torn down in the first day. So looking at history it fits the prophecy quite well if those days are 1000 years long.
It would seem they are.
Third question. Is Daniel repeating? Is Daniel 11-2 a 9-11 prophecy?
Consider this. Some bible prophesies are supposed to happen more than once. And Daniel 11-2 is accurate as a 500BC description of the events that led up to 9-11. Now consider this. 11-3 says a powerful leader would arise and fight back. And also look at Daniel 8. There it was predicted that this realm of Greece would attack and conquer 2 nations in the middle east. Afghanistan and Iraq fit the prophecy.
So Daniel on whole seems to be 3 for 3 at the moment. Which has me looking for the forth event of the series.
And to me that seems to be Iran/Persia. For Daniel 8 says the ram dies. And the ram was the symbol for the Ancient Persian empire. And one other prediction that troubles me.
Matthew 28-28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
For in Matthew 28 Jesus also makes a reference back to Daniel and the Abomination of Desolation. So is this another reference back to Daniel and the Ram of Daniel 8?
I'll guess we'll see won't we???
< Message edited by Ntech -- 4/26/2008 8:35:35 AM >
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RE: Just curious - 4/26/2008 1:28:03 PM
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Robert_G
Posts: 266
Joined: 1/8/2006
From: British Columbia, Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mvic
Yes - the world is rotten. But there is more good in this world right now than there is bad.
Do we live on the same planet???
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ntech
Questions. Why is Matthew 24-14 fulfilled?
Occams razor. The simplest explaination is usually the truth. The verse says this.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Nations can also be interpretated here as tribes or ethnic groups. It simply wasn't possible to fulfill this verse until the late 19th early 20th century. But if you interpretet this to mean all people in the world then short of a supernatural event its simply not possible to fulfill. What about people in the middle of Islamic countries where is punishable by death to preach Christianity? Or extremly remote areas of the world?
Ntech...I agree with you 100%. It boggles my mind why so many Christians cannot accept this prophesy as being fulfilled or perhaps just a few short years away from being fulfilled.
IMHO, this is one of the most basic, easy to understand, black and white prophecies in scripture.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ntech
But if you interpretet this to mean all people in the world then short of a supernatural event its simply not possible to fulfill.
Again...agreed. In some cases, people won't let you near their kids, or in an area, etc, etc...Its literally impossible to expect this to EVER happen.
Is the end imminent? Not neccessarily.
Is the end coming soon? Absolutely.
Are we to live every day as best we can for Christ? 100% yes.
_____________________________
..............
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RE: Just curious - 4/26/2008 8:39:53 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 624
Joined: 3/30/2008
From: Mpls, MN
Status: online
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quote:
Tracy...you are really hung up on America being Babylon but you have to understand that Babylon is Jerusalem and the city don't fall until after the middle of the last (70th) week.
No I'm hung up on and understanding what the Lord says to me when I read the Bible.
Jerusalem has never been and will never be Babylon. What Bible do you read? Babylon has taken Jerusalem, just like the Romans, etc. but how can a person come to the conclusion that Jerusalem is Babylon?
Where's your verses to back that up.
I can list alot that fits US. What's the difference, when the end is near who is spared? You think we are just gonna be hunky dory here in US. After all we have did, you think God is pleased we are letting gays get married, we fighting 2 wars, that people are killing at alarming rates, perverts running Churches, abortions, celebrate pagan holidays.
Jerusalem is not in control of the ancient city of Babylon even. It's not the hindermost nation as Jeremiah says.
I just don't get this as painful as it may be, America is NOT innocent, she is Babylon.
_____________________________
Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
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RE: Just curious - 5/12/2008 9:11:13 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 73
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: online
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quote:
quote:
Tracy...you are really hung up on America being Babylon but you have to understand that Babylon is Jerusalem and the city don't fall until after the middle of the last (70th) week
Jerusalem is babylon?. How did you come to that conclusion?.
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RE: Just curious - 5/15/2008 6:06:54 AM
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everjoyful
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I don't deny that right now the world is scary and Jesus could be all set for a return but I disagree that we are in our worst state ever.
In the past nature has also wiped out millions. entire civilisations in volcano eruptions....Dinosaurs etc. Part of our current struggle with nature is that we build in areas that are know to be on fault lines or susceptible to flooding. Or we lack respect for its sheer power.
As for human condition When I think of the slave trade or the ancient slave trade. Or Historical invasions, the inquisition or the millions murdered in the collesuem or the millions of people who were tortured starved and murdered in concerntration camps in ww2.(etc etc) I actually think that today is a case of the same old story. It just seems worse because we actually witness it first hand and we also witness it globally too thanks to the internet and media.
I am sure that a majority of jews in nazi death camps assumed that surely a messiah was due then.
Worst state ever? no I think we could do much much worse. (It would be rather nice if Jesus did come back for us now though!) Just keep your eyes on the prize.
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john 14 v27...do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
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