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How do YECs explain predator/prey anatomy - 3/31/2008 1:24:07 PM
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DanJames
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This is to break up the thread " Some questions for Young Earth/Cosmos Creationist." posted by StephenJ. He asked this question:
quote:
1. As I understand it YEC thinking states that before Adam and Eve sinned there was no predation in the animal kingdom. In other words lions, tigers, sharks, snakes, Carnosaurs (now excluding T-Rex surprisingly), and wolves were all plant eaters. How does one explain the elements of their anatomy, and behavior that clearly indicate that they were designed for predation and/or scavenging? For example the forward facing eyes of most predators (for judging distance,) and the outward facing eyes of most plant eaters (for observing surroundings so they won’t be snuck up on as easily) seem to me to only make sense in the context of predator/prey system. Why would Cheetah’s have their specially designed “speed based” anatomy if they were designed to eat plants? Even something like a shark’s ability to detect blood in the water doesn't seem to make sense if it was originally an herbivore.
2. What possible vegetarian application could something like the venom of a snake, or a spider have? Why would God design creatures with such deadly toxins if he didn't intend them to eat other animals?
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RE: How do YECs explain predator/prey anatomy - 3/31/2008 4:42:43 PM
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drj11
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Sorry if off topic, but I'd like to know how they explain bacteria? If there was no death before the fall, everything living thing would be swimming in oceans of it. Or do they say bacteria just never reproduced? Pretty much any living creature, humans included would explode from the bacteria reproducing inside them. Or what about pathogenic microorganisms that our immune system hunts down and kills?
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RE: How do YECs explain predator/prey anatomy - 3/31/2008 4:47:03 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drj11
Sorry if off topic, but I'd like to know how they explain bacteria? If there was no death before the fall, everything living thing would be swimming in oceans of it. Or do they say bacteria just never reproduced? Pretty much any living creature, humans included would explode from the bacteria reproducing inside them. Or what about pathogenic microorganisms that our immune system hunts down and kills?
Yeah, it is off topic, why not start a new thread?
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RE: How do YECs explain predator/prey anatomy - 3/31/2008 9:32:06 PM
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Zuniceratops
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quote:
Sorry if off topic, but I'd like to know how they explain bacteria? If there was no death before the fall, everything living thing would be swimming in oceans of it. Or do they say bacteria just never reproduced? Pretty much any living creature, humans included would explode from the bacteria reproducing inside them. Or what about pathogenic microorganisms that our immune system hunts down and kills?
I've been thinking about the same thing myself, recently. So has AiG, apparently.
Answers Research Journal
Myself, I can't say for sure. I've thought, though, since bacteria and other single-celled organisms are not nephesh-cheyyah like the animals, and might be considered simply organic machines, death for them might simply not be the same as death for animals or us, and it could be that they "died" in God's original perfect creation. After all, plants aren't supposed to die in the Scriptural sense either.
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RE: How do YECs explain predator/prey anatomy - 4/3/2008 10:46:52 AM
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Agahnim
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Are none of the creationists here going to even attempt to answer the question of why God would have animals things like venom, or the ability to detect blood, if they were all intended to be herbiroves?
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RE: How do YECs explain predator/prey anatomy - 4/3/2008 11:02:43 AM
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1love1God1way
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Maybe not all of us creationists fit YOUR mold of creationist.
I have no problem believing that God created meat-eating animals.
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RE: How do YECs explain predator/prey anatomy - 4/3/2008 11:11:31 AM
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Nothingman
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You also believe people who haven't heard of Jesus before are by definition hell-bound...so it seems you have no problem believing ANY ridiculous concept...
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RE: How do YECs explain predator/prey anatomy - 4/3/2008 1:13:28 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Agahnim
Are none of the creationists here going to even attempt to answer the question of why God would have animals things like venom, or the ability to detect blood, if they were all intended to be herbiroves?
I was going to let someone else take the first stab at it since I wrote the OP, but I'll formulate my thoughts and write a little something for people to work on.
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Maybe not all of us creationists fit YOUR mold of creationist.
I have no problem believing that God created meat-eating animals.
I'm sure UncleMonkey would LOVE to post his verse that says that God gave all the animals veggies to eat, so I'll let him do so. It's a pretty well accepted concept in the YEC mold that no animals were carnivores earlier than the fall. Perhaps insectivores or fish-o-vores (ichthyovores?) depending on your definition of what's a "living" thing.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nothingman
You also believe people who haven't heard of Jesus before are by definition hell-bound...so it seems you have no problem believing ANY ridiculous concept...
Way overstated, off-topic, and unnecessary. Perhaps you should read the Terms of service before you continue posting.
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RE: How do YECs explain predator/prey anatomy - 4/3/2008 2:21:40 PM
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DanJames
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Spiders can't chew their food, so they inject it with a venom that digests it, then they slurp up the digested food with their sieve mouth. Scorpion venom also digests the food for them. My hypothesis is that a spider or scorpion would be able to use this mechanism to eat any fruit with a sufficiently thick exocarp to contain digested pericarp, but not so think that a spider can't bite it. I would speculate that they had a berry diet.
I'm not positive, but I think snake venom also begins to digest its food before it swallows it. One might speculate that the venom aided the snake in digesting plant matter and some snakes secondarily lost their venom later in earth's history.
< Message edited by DanJames -- 4/3/2008 2:29:17 PM >
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RE: How do YECs explain predator/prey anatomy - 4/3/2008 2:50:09 PM
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Agahnim
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quote:
Spiders can't chew their food, so they inject it with a venom that digests it, then they slurp up the digested food with their sieve mouth. Scorpion venom also digests the food for them. My hypothesis is that a spider or scorpion would be able to use this mechanism to eat any fruit with a sufficiently thick exocarp to contain digested pericarp, but not so think that a spider can't bite it. I would speculate that they had a berry diet.
I'm not positive, but I think snake venom also begins to digest its food before it swallows it. One might speculate that the venom aided the snake in digesting plant matter and some snakes secondarily lost their venom later in earth's history.
What you’re saying about spider venom also being for digestive purposes is right, but this isn’t true for snakes. Snake venom has a few different components, and almost all of them are there specifically to interfere with the prey animal’s cardiac system and cause it to lose control of its muscles. Other snakes, such as constrictors, don’t use venom at all but still eat and digest their prey in the same way as venomous snakes.
According to Wikipedia, the idea that snake venom serves a digestive purpose was debunked fairly recently: “The presence of enzymes in snake venom led to the belief that it was an adaptation to assist in the digestion of prey, but studies of the western diamondback rattlesnake, a snake with highly proteolytic venom, show that envenomation has no impact on the time food takes to pass through the gut. More research is needed to determine the selective pressures that have armed snakes in this way.”
Do you have a guess like this about how sharks would have used their ability to detect blood, or how cheetahs would have used their anatomy that’s optimized for speed, if they weren’t originally predators?
< Message edited by Agahnim -- 4/3/2008 2:59:20 PM >
_____________________________
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RE: How do YECs explain predator/prey anatomy - 4/3/2008 3:08:56 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Agahnim
quote:
Spiders can't chew their food, so they inject it with a venom that digests it, then they slurp up the digested food with their sieve mouth. Scorpion venom also digests the food for them. My hypothesis is that a spider or scorpion would be able to use this mechanism to eat any fruit with a sufficiently thick exocarp to contain digested pericarp, but not so think that a spider can't bite it. I would speculate that they had a berry diet.
I'm not positive, but I think snake venom also begins to digest its food before it swallows it. One might speculate that the venom aided the snake in digesting plant matter and some snakes secondarily lost their venom later in earth's history.
What you’re saying about spider venom also being for digestive purposes is right, but this isn’t true for snakes. Snake venom has a few different components, and almost all of them are there specifically to interfere with the prey animal’s cardiac system and cause it to lose control of its muscles. Other snakes, such as constrictors, don’t use venom at all but still eat and digest their prey in the same way as venomous snakes.
Do you have a guess like this about how sharks would have used their ability to detect blood, or how cheetahs would have used their anatomy that’s optimized for speed, if they weren’t originally predators?
Snake venom comes in a few different forms. I'm not familiar with it other than to say that it takes the place of salivary glands. Maybe someone else can fill in here.
As far as cats go, I do have some answers, but they aren't good, intellectually satisfying answers. Large cats use their claws for purposes other than killing. A cat does have the ability to run. It also has the ability to bound and climb trees, the latter of which it wouldn't be able to do without claws. Cats are a testimony to God's craftsmanship, and though carnivores today, could have subsisted on fruits and grass.
As for sharks, because they are fish, they and their food may not be considered alive in the biblical sense. The hierarchy of what's considered alive when it comes to non-land dwelling, air breathing animals gets fuzzy when you get down to the fish level. The doctrine comes from verses like Genesis 7:22 where animals that are alive are described as having the breath of life in their nostrils. Granted, a lot of fish do have nostrils and some of them do go to "lungs", which is why it's fuzzy. Suffice it to say, the organisms from vertebrate fish taxons down could be considered non-living in the biblical sense.
And here's a tidbit. Some theorize that sharks don't actually detect blood, but electricity from exposed nerve endings.
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RE: How do YECs explain predator/prey anatomy - 4/3/2008 3:39:11 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
As far as cats go...
That reminds me. Housecats cannot synthesize taurine, and thus require it in their diet, or they go irreversibly blind and suffer other problems. But taurine is "virtually absent from plants."
It seems that cats cannot really live on a vegetarian diet. Ooh, getting Wiki-happy, I find that cats are obligate carnivores "and require nutrients (including arginine, taurine, arachidonic acid, vitamin A, vitamin B12 and niacin) found in meat sources that cannot be obtained in sufficient amount in plant sources. According to the National Research Council, "unsupplemented vegetarian diets can results in harmful deficiencies of certain essential amino acids, fatty acids, and vitamins.""
Anecdotally, I can say that some vegan acquaintances of mine who insist on a vegan diet for their cats have cats that never make it to their fifth birthday.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: How do YECs explain predator/prey anatomy - 4/3/2008 6:01:10 PM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL:essentialsaltesquote:
That reminds me. Housecats cannot synthesize taurine, and thus require it in their diet, or they go irreversibly blind and suffer other problems. But taurine is "virtually absent from plants."
However, soy and sunflower are good sources for cystic acid.
“In summary, cats do not utilize dietary cysteinesulfinic acid as a precursor for taurine, whereas cysteic acid may replace part, or all of the dietary taurine needs of cats. The metabolic basis for the lack of utilization of dietary cysteinesulfinate appears to be efficient transamination to -sulfinyl pyruvate, which undergoes irreversible breakdown to pyruvate and sulfite rather than decarboxylation leading to taurine. In contrast, cysteic acid is reversibly transaminated to -sulfopyruvate, which is relatively stable and allows for the efficient decarboxylation of cysteic acid to taurine.” - http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/128/4/751
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RE: How do YECs explain predator/prey anatomy - 4/3/2008 6:39:18 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
As far as cats go...
That reminds me. Housecats cannot synthesize taurine, and thus require it in their diet, or they go irreversibly blind and suffer other problems. But taurine is "virtually absent from plants."
It seems that cats cannot really live on a vegetarian diet. Ooh, getting Wiki-happy, I find that cats are obligate carnivores "and require nutrients (including arginine, taurine, arachidonic acid, vitamin A, vitamin B12 and niacin) found in meat sources that cannot be obtained in sufficient amount in plant sources. According to the National Research Council, "unsupplemented vegetarian diets can results in harmful deficiencies of certain essential amino acids, fatty acids, and vitamins.""
Anecdotally, I can say that some vegan acquaintances of mine who insist on a vegan diet for their cats have cats that never make it to their fifth birthday.
I get the feeling that if I were to present this point to you, you could easily find the answer to it. I'll bet it wouldn't take you that long either. There are a lot of animals that have become acclimated to a certain diet. Pandas cannot live without their very specific diet. Koala bears cannot live except on their very specific diet. Lots of animals have very specific diets not shared by their near relatives. Who knows what the original population of cats subsisted on. Did your wiki-recource happen to mention any other cats that can synthesize taurine? Or do they all have to drink Red Bull?
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RE: How do YECs explain predator/prey anatomy - 4/3/2008 6:43:50 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
However, soy and sunflower are good sources for cystic acid.
Where did you find that? All I can find is that cysteic acid "has been isolated from human hair oxidized with permanganate. It occurs normally in the outer part of the sheep's fleece, where the wool is exposed to light and weather."
Though I guess the cats could graze on sheep while the sheep grazed on grass. Though I'd worry about the hairballs.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: How do YECs explain predator/prey anatomy - 4/3/2008 6:48:49 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
However, soy and sunflower are good sources for cystic acid.
Where did you find that? All I can find is that cysteic acid "has been isolated from human hair oxidized with permanganate. It occurs normally in the outer part of the sheep's fleece, where the wool is exposed to light and weather."
Though I guess the cats could graze on sheep while the sheep grazed on grass. Though I'd worry about the hairballs.
HA!
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RE: How do YECs explain predator/prey anatomy - 4/3/2008 10:46:16 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
ORIGINAL:essentialsaltesquote:
Where did you find that?
On the internet.
Here is one source. http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/104/9/1172.pdf
quote:
Cystine
and methionine were measured as cysteic
acid and methionine sulfone by performic
acid oxidation of the samples, followed by
acid hydrolysis.
They were trying to measure cystine in the samples, and used sample prep techniques to convert it to cysteic acid (the actual analyte they measured). It's not clear that there was any cysteic acid in the original sample.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: How do YECs explain predator/prey anatomy - 4/4/2008 12:59:35 PM
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DanJames
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Even though I think that the initial point that house cats (being one representative of a larger kind) can't synthesize taurine is not conclusive (since I haven't found any tests done on the rest of the taxon), I guess it bears mentioning that taurine has been known to be present in seaweed, and has also been discovered in other plants: http://www.journalarchive.jst.go.jp/jnlpdf.php?cdjournal=bbb1961&cdvol=50&noissue=7&startpage=1887&lang=en&from=jnlabstract
So: 1) House cats may have secondarily lost the ability to synthesize taurine. (we'd need to check the other closely related genera to be more conclusive)
however 2) they may not have needed to anyway (we wouldn't know the diet of the original kind accept that it should have included a taurine bearing plant if they couldn't synthesize it theirselves
Either of these may be the answer, but they are both speculation for obvious reasons.
Edited for clarity
< Message edited by DanJames -- 4/4/2008 1:41:09 PM >
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RE: How do YECs explain predator/prey anatomy - 4/4/2008 1:36:50 PM
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Jhud
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You forgot the thrid option; God may simply not like cats and didn't want them around that long.
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RE: How do YECs explain predator/prey anatomy - 4/4/2008 1:38:07 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
You forgot the thrid option; God may simply not like cats and didn't want them around that long.
Yikes, so he made them go blind... eek.
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RE: How do YECs explain predator/prey anatomy - 4/4/2008 1:43:37 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
taurine has been known to be present in seaweed, and has also been discovered in other plants: http://www.journalarchive.jst.go.jp/jnlpdf.php?cdjournal=bbb1961&cdvol=50&noissue=7&startpage=1887&lang=en&from=jnlabstract
The highest taurine level recorded in that study was about 1000 nmol/g of wet seaweed. The other study suggested that cats need about 0.8g taurine per kilogram of diet. The molar mass of taurine is about 125 g/mol. So... that plant had 125 micrograms of taurine per gram of seaweed. Too small by a factor of more than a thousand.
quote:
So: 1) House cats may have secondarily lost the ability to synthesize taurine.
Is this option equivalent to (micro)evolution?
quote:
2) they may not have needed to anyway (we wouldn't know the diet of the original kind accept that it should have included a taurine bearing plant if they couldn't synthesize it theirselves
It looks like plants don't really have enough taurine for that to be possible. Then again, maybe seaweed used to produce a lot more taurine. Or maybe bananas used to be made of meat.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: How do YECs explain predator/prey anatomy - 4/4/2008 3:58:44 PM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL:essentialsaltesquote:
They were trying to measure cystine in the samples, and used sample prep techniques to convert it to cysteic acid (the actual analyte they measured). It's not clear that there was any cysteic acid in the original sample.
HERE is one that’s a little more obvious that the cysteic acid is already in the soybean.
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RE: How do YECs explain predator/prey anatomy - 4/4/2008 4:30:28 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
ORIGINAL:essentialsaltesquote:
They were trying to measure cystine in the samples, and used sample prep techniques to convert it to cysteic acid (the actual analyte they measured). It's not clear that there was any cysteic acid in the original sample.
HERE is one that’s a little more obvious that the cysteic acid is already in the soybean.
I'm not certain about that. All it says is that "Cystine and cysteine were determined as cysteic acid."
And that "the quantities of cysteic acid
measured in the hydrolysates were routinely
divided by 0.8 to give the final percent of
cystine plus cysteine."
They were trying to measure cystine in the sample, and were doing so by measuring a related compound derived from it.
Apparently, it is not easy to measure cystine and cysteine directly, as they interfere with the standard method, so some sort of chemical preparation step is necessary. Here's some info on methods used in another paper...
"Step 1. Performic acid oxidizes free and combined cysteine
and cystine, which interfere in step 4, to cysteic acid
(Harris & Ingram, 1960; Light & Smith, 1963), which does
not."
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: How do YECs explain predator/prey anatomy - 4/4/2008 6:47:48 PM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL:essentialsaltesquote:
I'm not certain about that. All it says is that "Cystine and cysteine were determined as cysteic acid."
I am sure they had good reason for making that determination. At any rate I think the evidence is good enough to refute the claim that cats could never have been vegetarian.
Today Seaweed is a good source of taurine so in the original creation there may have been other plants containing sufficient amounts of taurine.
It is also possible that originally cats could produce their own taurine but lost the ability through mutation. I.e. cats’ inability to produce their own taurine could be a genetic disorder.
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