|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/10/2008 2:57:46 PM
|
|
|
gmc4Jesus
Posts: 172
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Torrance, California
Status: offline
|
Sometimes I think we get our priorities focused on the wrong syllable. We always mean well. We are simply trying to perfect our walk with God and be perfect in our relationship in Christ.
The discussion I would like to enter here is a lack of focus on the "Fruit of the Spirit" and too much time spent on trying to analyze and determine what is the "power of the Holy Spirit". I'm not against the "power of the Holy Spirit". We need that power to discern when we are being tempted and find that power important in turning away from that temptation and doing what is right in God's eyes.
Galatians 3:22-23 says "22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."
Part of the problem as I see it is that we sometimes worry more about getting "power", and don't concern ourselves enough with displaying the "Fruit". Jesus repeatedly reminded us that we shall be know by our fruit (not our power).
Matthew 7:16-20 says: 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Matthew 12:33 says: 33 “Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit."
Again, in Luke 6:43-44a, Jesus says: 43 “No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit."
In John 15:1-8, Jesus tells the Apostles in the Upper Room, before He was to be betrayed: “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunesa so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
I do not recall anywhere where Jesus is instructing us to seek or have any "power". He tell us that our "power" is in serving others.
Matthew 18:1-4 says: 1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
2 He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3 And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."
Matthew 23:11 says: 11 "The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."
Also, in Luke 22:24-27, we read: 24 Also a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25 Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26 But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves."
Wouldn't we be much more effective if we focused more on bearing "Fruit" and less on displaying "power"? What can we do to build more "Fruit" in our personal lives and the lives of others in our churches?
By the way, it is important that we realize that "Fruit" is not "souls that we have won to Christ". How many souls we have won or not won may be a result of us producing "Fruit" in our Christian living, but that is not the "Fruit". Go back and read Galatians 5:22-23 at the top of this question.
God bless you as you strive to be fruitful for His Kingdom.
_____________________________
Let's talk about Jesus, His life and teachings at the www.gettingtoknowjesus.org Gospel Study Forum.
Home of "Getting To Know Jesus", a complete Bible study on the life and teachings of Jesus.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/10/2008 4:55:49 PM
|
|
|
URForgiven
Posts: 604
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmc4Jesus
Wouldn't we be much more effective if we focused more on bearing "Fruit" and less on displaying "power"? What can we do to build more "Fruit" in our personal lives and the lives of others in our churches?
We are not fruit inspectors, we are fruit bearers. We do not produce fruit, fruit is produced by God as we abide in Him. He is the vine, we are but the branches.
We are not to focus on displaying fruit or power, we are to focus on the One who produces the fruit, and the One who is power...Jesus Christ.
If you desire to bear more fruit, then abide more in the vine.
Peace
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/10/2008 5:04:53 PM
|
|
|
Liveloved
Posts: 1072
Joined: 1/22/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
We are not fruit inspectors, we are fruit bearers. We do not produce fruit, fruit is produced by God as we abide in Him. He is the vine, we are but the branches.
We are not to focus on displaying fruit or power, we are to focus on the One who produces the fruit, and the One who is power...Jesus Christ.
If you desire to bear more fruit, then abide more in the vine.
Amen, URForgiven! I could not have said it better myself. . . so thanks for saying it for me. 
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/10/2008 7:13:13 PM
|
|
|
gmc4Jesus
Posts: 172
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Torrance, California
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmc4Jesus
Wouldn't we be much more effective if we focused more on bearing "Fruit" and less on displaying "power"? What can we do to build more "Fruit" in our personal lives and the lives of others in our churches?
We are not fruit inspectors, we are fruit bearers. We do not produce fruit, fruit is produced by God as we abide in Him. He is the vine, we are but the branches.
We are not to focus on displaying fruit or power, we are to focus on the One who produces the fruit, and the One who is power...Jesus Christ.
If you desire to bear more fruit, then abide more in the vine.
Peace
I agree with your comments. Our focus is on Jesus and what He is doing in our lives. I bring this thought because I have observed many Christians who were more power focused and not really focusing on Jesus or whether He was changing them to bear more fruit.
Apart from the vine, we can do nothing. Therefore the way to build the Fruit of the Spirit in our lives is to learn more about the life and teachings of Jesus so He can produce His fruit in us, and through the fruit that we develop, influence others to come to His saving power.
It's all about getting to know Jesus better one day at a time.
_____________________________
Let's talk about Jesus, His life and teachings at the www.gettingtoknowjesus.org Gospel Study Forum.
Home of "Getting To Know Jesus", a complete Bible study on the life and teachings of Jesus.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/10/2008 7:32:03 PM
|
|
|
URForgiven
Posts: 604
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmc4Jesus
Therefore the way to build the Fruit of the Spirit in our lives is to learn more about the life and teachings of Jesus so He can produce His fruit in us, and through the fruit that we develop, influence others to come to His saving power.
It's all about getting to know Jesus better one day at a time.
If you are a Believer, Jesus Christ is in you, you can't get much closer than that.
Jesus is God. But Jesus is also the first true man to be born into this world. The first Spiritually alive person ever born. What Jesus taught us by His life is that a true man is only a true man when He is completely dependent upon God. Jesus, in His humanity, lived in complete dependency upon God the Father. This is what Jesus taught us.
Jesus now desires that same relationship with us. One of dependency, our dependency upon Him. This is our relationship with Christ as Christians, we are to live in total dependence upon Him.
When we abide [depend] upon Jesus, He produces fruit through us. We do not develop fruit, we bear it. The answer is still the same. if you want to bear more fruit, then depend more upon the living God who indwells you.
Peace
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/10/2008 8:23:38 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 3184
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
If you are a Believer, Jesus Christ is in you, you can't get much closer than that. Actually, I found that I could get much closer than that. As a saved Believer, I have all of Jesus. As a wholly sanctified Believer, He now has all of me! That's the only way we can live in total dependence on Christ.
quote:
The discussion I would like to enter here is a lack of focus on the "Fruit of the Spirit" and too much time spent on trying to analyze and determine what is the "power of the Holy Spirit". Now, back to the OP. Why is it "Fruit vs. Power"? The Holy Spirit enables both. There is no fruit without His Power. And power is misguided or worse without His Fruit. But I do agree that many preachers in high-profile public positions often overemphasize power-related external actions compared to fruit-related inward attitudes. Unfortunately, this is likely due to the fact that hype sells product.
quote:
I do not recall anywhere where Jesus is instructing us to seek or have any "power". He tell us that our "power" is in serving others. Please revisit Acts 1:8.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/10/2008 8:48:34 PM
|
|
|
deliveredarling
Posts: 973
Status: offline
|
I'm not clear on what you mean by "power".
We have no by in and of ourselves. Any power that we do have is given by the HS living and working through us.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/10/2008 9:01:00 PM
|
|
|
makarizo
Posts: 2774
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
If you are a Believer, Jesus Christ is in you, you can't get much closer than that.
At first glance, this statement suggests that there is nothing more for the follower of christ (like sanctification) than the statement of faith.
the bible teaches that we start out as babes, and rejoice in the milk, but in hebrews we are instructed to grow, and eat meat.
this suggests that there is indeed a growing process
quote:
Jesus now desires that same relationship with us. One of dependency, our dependency upon Him. This is our relationship with Christ as Christians, we are to live in total dependence upon Him.
UR: are you saying that you completely agree with the OP?
-fruit vs power-
I think I understand what you are saying, and i agree.
Jesus, after cursing the fig tree, promises His disciple that with faith they will 'have extrodinary power' (something like that)
first the fruit, and then the power
was just talking about Act 19.... and the Jewish exorcists with a friend last night.
< Message edited by doer -- 5/10/2008 9:08:14 PM >
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/10/2008 9:17:12 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 3184
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
quote:
If you are a Believer, Jesus Christ is in you, you can't get much closer than that. At first glance, this statement suggests that there is nothing more for the follower of christ (like sanctification) than the statement of faith.
the bible teaches that we start out as babes, and rejoice in the milk, but in hebrews we are instructed to grow, and eat meat.
this suggests that there is indeed a growing process Well stated, doer. I suspect every time you "do" something for the Lord, you are growing a little closer to Him!
quote:
Jesus, after cursing the fig tree, promises His disciple that with faith they will 'have extrodinary power' (something like that)
first the fruit, and then the power Actually, the withered fig tree passages in Matt 21 and Mark 11 refer to Jesus discussing the power of one's faith in petitionary prayer. How would that directly relate to the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/10/2008 10:07:29 PM
|
|
|
makarizo
Posts: 2774
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Actually, the withered fig tree passages in Matt 21 and Mark 11 refer to Jesus discussing the power of one's faith in petitionary prayer. How would that directly relate to the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit?
This is a very good question, because I would have thought the answer to be an easy one, but now I am wondering. petition = request.....beseech = to beg urgently.
Looking at Lk 9:1 "gave them power"
In Lk 10, Jesus sends out the 70
:19 'behold I give you authority'
Tell me drmark, is there no relation between faith, patition, and the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit?
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/10/2008 10:15:39 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 3184
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
Ahh, I think you missed my (careful) use of the word "directly". Of course all three of these are related because they all relate to GRACE! I guess my point was: how could Jesus have been directly discussing HS power when the HS was not given to these disciples until the Day of Pentecost?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/10/2008 10:38:15 PM
|
|
|
makarizo
Posts: 2774
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
HA!! good point.
and the (maybe a little off topic) question would be: when Jesus was on Earth, were His appointments "non indwelling Holy Spirit" appointments.
Luk 10:20 "Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven."
Luk 10:21 At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit,
Joh 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/10/2008 10:41:20 PM
|
|
|
URForgiven
Posts: 604
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
|
What did you do drmark, bring in backup debaters? LOL
_____________________________
The sin of the world is unbelief.
"I am a Believer, it is impossible for me to be an unbeliever."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/10/2008 10:45:01 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 3184
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
Isn't the Luke 10 passage referring solely to Jesus? Obviously He had power from the Holy Spirit before Pentecost! I'd never really thought of it before, but how did the seventy-two accomplish their miracles? Luke 10:17 suggests it was strictly "in the Name of Jesus".
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/10/2008 10:50:43 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 3184
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
What did you do drmark, bring in backup debaters? Although the "Holiness crowd" may appear outnumbered on these theology threads, I hardly consider us the "backup" position.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/16/2008 10:53:53 PM
|
|
|
BCGirl
Posts: 23
Joined: 5/16/2008
Status: offline
|
Hmmmmm, isn't living water powerful and help bear fruit to a fertile heart? How can we have one with out the other? I thaught to be whole in Christ is to share the power of the Holy Spirit to bear fruit from the knowlege of the word inscribed on our hearts.
< Message edited by BCGirl -- 5/16/2008 11:17:32 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/17/2008 9:19:18 AM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 3184
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
You thought right, BCGirl!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/17/2008 7:19:05 PM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 3652
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: online
|
There is a two-fold operation of the HS in our lives: Within for character and upon for power. We need both.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/22/2008 11:19:40 PM
|
|
|
gmc4Jesus
Posts: 172
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Torrance, California
Status: offline
|
To me, the Fruit of the Spirit, is little more than a description of the character of Christ, which God also desires to see in us.
If we look at Jesus as a role model (discussed in another thread), bearing the Fruit of the Spirit is simply becoming more like Jesus.
I have noticed that some Christians seem to focus on having more "power" (although I'm not sure how they identify and define that power) than they do on learning what the Bible teaches or worshipping Jesus, etc.
To me, the most important power that God gives us is the power to recognize temptation and say "NO" when Satan tries to get us to sin. That is a power that we need to pursue.
If we are truly developing the Fruit of the Spirit, God will build His power in us so that when sin comes along, we will recognize it before getting caught in its grip.
I question any other definition of power that I have observed in some Christian groups.
_____________________________
Let's talk about Jesus, His life and teachings at the www.gettingtoknowjesus.org Gospel Study Forum.
Home of "Getting To Know Jesus", a complete Bible study on the life and teachings of Jesus.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/22/2008 11:56:42 PM
|
|
|
ceejaye19
Posts: 5
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: philippines
Status: offline
|
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
i believe that Jesus wanted us to shun evil and bear good fruits and not to focus much on the power that believers can cast out devils,etc.this is what the Lord is looking, to be a light of this world..for in the end he stated "depart from me, ye that work iniquity..
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/23/2008 7:58:50 AM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 3184
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
Very well stated, cj19! The world will know we are Christians by our love, not by foolish displays of supernatural power.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Holy Spirit - Fruit vs. Power - 5/23/2008 8:02:02 AM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 3652
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: online
|
Actually, it would seem from reading the pages of the NT He wants BOTH.
1Co 2:1 And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God.
1Co 2:2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
1Co 2:3 I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling,
1Co 2:4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
1Co 2:5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
Please be very careful in speaking of the move of the Holy Spirit as "foolish."
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
