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Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 - 8/13/2008 8:40:25 PM
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Fledgling
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1.In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2.And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
IF you translate the orignal hebrew..for was in Genesis 1:2
H1961
äéä
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.
and selected become - became or came to pass.. It could change the creation story.
The heaven and the earth were created and then became without form and void and darkness was over the earth.
Was there a first creation of earth and then something happened (maybe satan falling to earth with the other angels) and then it was re-created by God?
Any comments?
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RE: Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 - 8/13/2008 10:44:17 PM
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drmark
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The incorrect translation "became" as the basis for "Gap theory" is well refuted by THIS ARTICLE.
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RE: Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 - 8/13/2008 11:27:39 PM
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Fledgling
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Thanks, I never thought about it as a place to work in the Dinosaurs :-) I will read this in detail.. thanks
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RE: Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 - 8/14/2008 10:15:01 AM
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DougHorton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
The incorrect translation "became" as the basis for "Gap theory" is well refuted by THIS ARTICLE.
Yes, better word studies, and, to be frank, just plain better scholarship discredited the gap theory decades ago.
The word was in Hebrew means... (are you ready for this revelation?) it means was.
(Unless, of course, your name is Clinton or Scofield.)
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Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 - 8/14/2008 3:25:09 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fledgling
Thanks, I never thought about it as a place to work in the Dinosaurs :-) I will read this in detail.. thanks
Young's Literal Translation:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth --
Gen 1:2 the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness [is] on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,
Using AIG as a resource requires a grain of salt about the size of Benny Hinn's head, IMHO.
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RE: Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 - 8/14/2008 3:35:52 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth -- The only verb in Genesis 1:1 is bara. There are eight English verbs listed in the BDBG Hebrew lexicon as possible translations for bara. NONE of them include "preparing". I would say Rev. Dr. Young goofed on this "literal" translation!
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RE: Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 - 8/14/2008 4:02:06 PM
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GroupW
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Looking at BDBG now. Lists in the first position "to form, fashion by cutting, shape out, pare a reed for writing, a stick for an arrow". "Prepare" as in what one would do to a potato in advance of making french fries would seem to be a fair translation. The root word appears to have a relationship to the idea of creation via cutting of something already existant (e.g. the phenican baru - incisor/a trade involving cutting)
It doesn't seem too far out of bounds to me at any rate.
As a curiousity - what tools do you use for all if this? Personally, I'm turning into a Logos addict. Dangerous in the hands of a novice like me, but fun nonetheless.
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RE: Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 - 8/14/2008 4:20:30 PM
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drmark
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quote:
"Prepare" as in what one would do to a potato in advance of making french fries would seem to be a fair translation. Not if one remembers the centuries of exegetical tradition which support creation ex nihilo as the correct understanding of bara!
quote:
The root word appears to have a relationship to the idea of creation via cutting of something already existant (e.g. the phenican baru - incisor/a trade involving cutting) What something(?) would be already existent for God to cut the universe out of? This makes no sense to me either thelogically or philosophically.
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RE: Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 - 8/14/2008 4:26:24 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
"Prepare" as in what one would do to a potato in advance of making french fries would seem to be a fair translation. Not if one remembers the centuries of exegetical tradition which support creation ex nihilo as the correct understanding of bara!
quote:
The root word appears to have a relationship to the idea of creation via cutting of something already existant (e.g. the phenican baru - incisor/a trade involving cutting) What something(?) would be already existent for God to cut the universe out of? This makes no sense to me either thelogically or philosophically.
1st point - The question really isn't one of exegetical tradition when coming to a literal translation. If one is going for maximum readability within the context of exegetical tradition, then yes. In a literal translation, the common meaning of the word in the particular time and place is an appropriate paradigm to follow. "Prepare" would seem to be within the range of common meaning given by BDBG. (Edit to add: not advocating that translation specifically. There are probably better word choices, bit this one isn't outside the bounds of what one might would allow. My point here is a very narrow one - one can argue whether or not "prepare" is the best translation, but saying that it's an incorrect translation in a literal context I think is a stretch. That's all.)
2nd point - again, just providing context on the meaning of the root word. It is what it is. I agree it's theologically, as well as scientifically, more than a bit awkward.
< Message edited by GroupW -- 8/14/2008 4:34:02 PM >
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"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 - 8/14/2008 4:35:55 PM
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Fledgling
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please tell me what the BDBG is.. I use a combination of things provided for in e-sword.. it combines different bibles, concordances, commentaries all kinds of stuff.
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RE: Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 - 8/14/2008 4:36:16 PM
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drmark
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Thank you, GroupW, for that excellent clarification. It just goes to show that "literal translation" of certain texts may not be the most appropriate for proper exegesis. Of course, the non-conservative interpreters lurking here will have a field day with that statement!
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RE: Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 - 8/14/2008 4:36:42 PM
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GroupW
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Brown-Driver-Biggs Hebrew and English Lexicon.
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RE: Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 - 8/14/2008 4:40:23 PM
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drmark
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The G stands for Gesenius. I have no idea who these guys are (were) but they obviously know more Hebrew than I do! 
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RE: Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 - 8/14/2008 4:46:09 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Thank you, GroupW, for that excellent clarification. It just goes to show that "literal translation" of certain texts may not be the most appropriate for proper exegesis. Of course, the non-conservative interpreters lurking here will have a field day with that statement!
Literal translations are great for adding some color, but best when taken in conjunction with a variety of other resources. Like anything else, really. (Personally, I don't put myself in the category of either a conservative interpreter or non-conservative. I'm a bit of a 'tweener. I've found plenty of error on both sides, so I'm wary of hitching my horse to either one. Makes me a hermeneutical mutt sometimes.)
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“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 - 8/14/2008 4:47:23 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
The G stands for Gesenius. I have no idea who these guys are (were) but they obviously know more Hebrew than I do!
And me. I'm in awe of what some of these scholars have accomplished.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 - 8/18/2008 6:56:59 PM
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LightOfEarendil
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Hello all! I'll give my comment about this.
Notice that in Genesis 1:2 it says that the earth was a wasted void, but in 1:1 it says that God created heaven and Earth. Now, I don't think God creates things in a state described in Genesis 1:2. Look at this verse:
Isa 45:18 For thus saith Jehovah that created the heavens, the God that formed the earth and made it, that established it and created it not a waste, that formed it to be inhabited: I am Jehovah; and there is none else.
Notice that it says that He "created it not a waste". So something must have happened between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.
I've found in Ezekiel something that clears this thing up:
Eze 28:17 Thy heart was lifted up because of thy beauty; thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I have cast thee to the ground; I have laid thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
The hebrew word that was translated ground is ERETZ which means EARTH. This makes me think that the earth already existed by the time of Satan's fall, and maybe that was the reason of the catastrophic conditions of the earth in Genesis 1:2.
I would like to know what you all think.
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RE: Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 - 8/18/2008 9:05:13 PM
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drmark
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quote:
I would like to know what you all think. There is no proper Scriptural basis for "gap theory" - that's my thunk!
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RE: Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 - 8/19/2008 1:20:45 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth -- The only verb in Genesis 1:1 is bara. There are eight English verbs listed in the BDBG Hebrew lexicon as possible translations for bara. NONE of them include "preparing". I would say Rev. Dr. Young goofed on this "literal" translation!
From Strong's:
1. to create
2. to cut down (a wood)
3. select
4. feed (as formative processes)
5. choose
6. create (creator)
7. dispatch
8. do
9. make (fat).
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RE: Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 - 8/19/2008 1:22:31 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Thank you, GroupW, for that excellent clarification. It just goes to show that "literal translation" of certain texts may not be the most appropriate for proper exegesis. Of course, the non-conservative interpreters lurking here will have a field day with that statement!
At least you admit to it, finally.
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RE: Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 - 8/19/2008 4:32:17 PM
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drmark
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I've never denied it, cow. It's you who has twisted the meaning of "literal interpretation" beyond recognition!
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RE: Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 - 8/19/2008 4:39:31 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
I've never denied it, cow. It's you who has twisted the meaning of "literal interpretation" beyond recognition!
Sounds like the term "Literal Interpretation" isn't to be taken literally.
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RE: Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 - 8/19/2008 5:22:34 PM
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drmark
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Then don't.
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RE: Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 - 8/20/2008 6:08:29 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
The incorrect translation "became" as the basis for "Gap theory" is well refuted by THIS ARTICLE.
Yes, better word studies, and, to be frank, just plain better scholarship discredited the gap theory decades ago.
The word was in Hebrew means... (are you ready for this revelation?) it means was.
(Unless, of course, your name is Clinton or Scofield.)
Doug,
For the record, the original old version of Schofield's Reference Bible did not directly endorse the gap theory. It is possible he taught it but I don't have any books he wrote and I never read them.
In his Reference Bible, he gives a reference to a verse in Jeremiah and strongly implies that the gap theory is true. I do not recall him actually teaching it directly.
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Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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