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Does the Bible Say It Is God's Word? - 10/7/2008 6:00:40 PM
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SophiesLadder
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Before you flip out over this, let me explain myself.
I believe that the Word of God is the Second Person of the Godhead, Jesus Christ. (John 1:1; Rev 19:13-16).
I believe that the Bible is the Scriptures, is inspired by God, inerrantly true, written by men that were carried along by the Holy Spirit. As far as I can tell, both Jesus and the Bible refer to the Bible as the Scriptures.
Still, it bothers me when people refer to the Bible as God's Word, as if it held primacy over the Person of the Savior Jesus Christ. Is there any reference in the Bible where the term "Word of God" CANNOT be interpreted as the Son and MUST be interpreted as the Scriptures?
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RE: Does the Bible Say It Is God's Word? - 10/7/2008 7:14:33 PM
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1love1God1way
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The written Word is the context in which the Logos has been revealed to us.
It's not that it's MORE important, but it is necessarily nonetheless.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: Does the Bible Say It Is God's Word? - 10/7/2008 11:30:44 PM
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Biastai
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I like how the original poster said "inspired by God." Its exactly how I would explain it. I'm not sure why people got carried away with saying the words in the Bible are straight from the mouth of God. Probably had something to do with Paul's 1 Timothy passage about "God-breathed" scripture.
It very clear the words in the Bible reflect man's ever-developing perception of God. Rituals and sins lacking a moral element (i.e. Uzzah reaching for the Ark) give way to more advanced moral/ethical issues discussed by the 8th c. B.C. prophets. Then redemption is introduced by 2nd Isaiah and Jeremiah.
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RE: Does the Bible Say It Is God's Word? - 10/8/2008 10:19:50 AM
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SophiesLadder
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quote:
The written Word is the context in which the Logos has been revealed to us.
Please explain to me how you came to this understanding. Is the Logos not revealed to us through His spirit which dwell within us?
Why not simply refer to the Bible as the Scriptures so as to not confuse it with the Word of God, Jesus Christ?
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RE: Does the Bible Say It Is God's Word? - 10/8/2008 11:47:02 AM
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Michael_Carter
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Mark 7:13 is one such reference where the phrase "word of God" is unmistakably a reference to the Scriptures.
Jesus referenced what Moses wrote of in the Law of Moses in terms one how one is to treat one's parents and also the consequences of treating them improperly (Mark 7:10). These quotes Jesus uses come from Exodus 20:12 and Exodus 21:17.
Jesus then gives one illustration of what the Jewish leaders of His day did in order to get gain. When there were those who took that which was needed by their parents and gave it to the temple, they cried "It is Corban" (meaning "it is a gift"). Later, Paul would say that those who provide not for their own are worse than infidels (1 Tim. 5:8). Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for overlooking this error of the people (Mark 7:12).
He then pointed out that these erroneous actions made "the word of God of none effect by their tradition. . ." (Mark 7:13). The word of God in this case refers specifically to the commands Moses had written by inspiration in the Old Testament.
Michael Carter
http://www.daleridgechurchofchrist.net
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RE: Does the Bible Say It Is God's Word? - 10/8/2008 12:10:55 PM
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1love1God1way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SophiesLadder
quote:
The written Word is the context in which the Logos has been revealed to us.
Please explain to me how you came to this understanding. Is the Logos not revealed to us through His spirit which dwell within us?
Why not simply refer to the Bible as the Scriptures so as to not confuse it with the Word of God, Jesus Christ?
How would we know to allow the Spirit to indwell with us if not for the Bible? How would we know who Jesus was or what He has done without Scripture?
And I didn't refer to it as Scripture to show how Word and Logos are intertwined.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: Does the Bible Say It Is God's Word? - 10/8/2008 5:46:34 PM
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SophiesLadder
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quote:
He then pointed out that these erroneous actions made "the word of God of none effect by their tradition. . ." (Mark 7:13).
I understand "word of God" in this context as a reference to the Spirit who gave Moses what to write down. Is there any reason not to?
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RE: Does the Bible Say It Is God's Word? - 10/8/2008 5:50:21 PM
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SophiesLadder
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[/quote]
How would we know to allow the Spirit to indwell with us if not for the Bible? How would we know who Jesus was or what He has done without Scripture?
[/quote]
These things come to us by the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the conveyance of the Spirit through preaching. How were the Thessalonians, Corinthians, Ephesians, Philippians, etc saved before the New Testament was written? The Spirit wrote the Bible, not vice versa.
Love and peace.
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RE: Does the Bible Say It Is God's Word? - 10/8/2008 6:44:36 PM
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Lynn_J
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SophiesLadder
Before you flip out over this, let me explain myself.
I believe that the Word of God is the Second Person of the Godhead, Jesus Christ. (John 1:1; Rev 19:13-16).
I believe that the Bible is the Scriptures, is inspired by God, inerrantly true, written by men that were carried along by the Holy Spirit. As far as I can tell, both Jesus and the Bible refer to the Bible as the Scriptures.
Still, it bothers me when people refer to the Bible as God's Word, as if it held primacy over the Person of the Savior Jesus Christ. Is there any reference in the Bible where the term "Word of God" CANNOT be interpreted as the Son and MUST be interpreted as the Scriptures?
It is both.
God spoke the world into existence (see the many phrases in Genesis 1 "And God said." It was the word that proceeded out of his mouth that began the act of creation.
Psalm 33:6 says, "By the word of the LORD were the heavens made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth."
Here in Psalm 33, since the LORD is God, we can substitute "the LORD" with "GOD." Thus the psalmist makes a direct reference to the word of God.
John 1:1-2, 14: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning . . . The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."
All three persons of the trinity were present at creation, including Jesus. Because Jesus is the fulfillment of all that God has said through his word and Jesus came to earth in the form of a human body, he is referred to as the "word made flesh." He represents everything that God spoke through the prophets, the poets, and all of the other writers who were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write down the words of God.
Jesus is the second person of the Godhead. He is the word made flesh. The Scriptures are the words of God in written form. They are the written record of the word(s) of God.
Blessings,
Lynn
_____________________________
www.lynnjacobs-christianlifecoach.com
www.christianlifecoachingblog.blogspot.com
www.blogtalkradio.com/lynn-jacobs
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RE: Does the Bible Say It Is God's Word? - 10/9/2008 10:24:12 AM
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SophiesLadder
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lynn_J
Psalm 33:6 says, "By the word of the LORD were the heavens made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth."
I don't think I disagree with anything you have said. However, look at Psalm 33:6 and compare with John 1:2, which speaks of the Word: "All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made."
This leads me to understand Psalm 33:6 as "By Jesus Christ were the heavens made...."
Or am I to suppose the God who is Spirit has a literal mouth?
Basically, I'm just saying that we should call the Word the Word and the Scriptures the Scriptures. Even the Bible admits it is insufficient to convey the totality of the Word: "And I suppose that if all the other things Jeus did were written down, the whole world could not contain the books." John 21:25
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RE: Does the Bible Say It Is God's Word? - 10/9/2008 12:41:22 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SophiesLadder
quote:
How would we know to allow the Spirit to indwell with us if not for the Bible? How would we know who Jesus was or what He has done without Scripture?
These things come to us by the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the conveyance of the Spirit through preaching. How were the Thessalonians, Corinthians, Ephesians, Philippians, etc saved before the New Testament was written? The Spirit wrote the Bible, not vice versa.
Love and peace.
They read the Tanach(OT) as interpreted by the Messiah and delivered by Paul. Yes, there is also some direct revelation, but to discount prior revelation because it has been written down is not wise, in my opinion. The Creator has revealed Himself to us in many ways and to ignore any of those revelations is to impoverish oneself.
Nothing we a have is complete. What we know of the Messiah is also written. If He were to appear before me today, my understanding of Him would be limited by my ability to understand.
Now, in general discussion, I see no problem with using the Word to refer to the Scriptures, since they are a representation of the Creator. However, if in that discussion there is confusion regarding the difference between the limited representation and the absolute reality, I would ask that we refer to the Scriptures as the "written Word" for the purposes of that discussion.
I have had this problem in the past so I can understand your frustration. That said, we can not allow the sophists who use words to confuse to stop us from freely using terms on which there is general agreement.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 10/9/2008 1:00:12 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Does the Bible Say It Is God's Word? - 10/9/2008 1:39:34 PM
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Geraldh
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The bible uses both the phrase "Word of God" and the word scripture. There is no basis for equating them exclusively such that if one has the scriptures he has the WOG. Let me explain. In 1 Cor 14 Paul speaks of some Christians who baptize the dead. Now Mormons use this passage to say that there should be such a practice. Mormons aren't Christian of course but it wouldn't surprize me if one day a denomination starts to adopt such a practice using this passage. Now Christians today that I know would disagree that the passage is justification for such a practice. Therefore those who use it for such justification, while they have the passage, do not have a correct interpretation of the passage. Therefore though they have the scriptures they do not have the Word of God. Any old interpretation is not the Word of God. Don't get me wrong, scripture is the word of God, but only when one has the correct interpretation. This is why Paul says in 2 Tim 2:15 "hold fast to the TRADITIONS you have recieved, whether by WORD OF MOUTH or in writing from us". There is scripture which interestingly enough is a tradition but there is also a set of Oral teachings that go along with it that illuminate it and make what is implicit explicit. Without the two you do not have the Word of God. 2 Timothy 2:2 shows that these things are supposed to be passed along from one to another.
[2] and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
God bless
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RE: Does the Bible Say It Is God's Word? - 10/9/2008 3:27:59 PM
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SophiesLadder
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quote:
They read the Tanach(OT) as interpreted by the Messiah and delivered by Paul.
The people I referred to were Greek Gentiles. They had a little or no knowledge of Judaism and if they did they probably considered it backwater. The gospel was delivered to them with power and authority, through preaching - through spiritual, not written media. Now, after their salvation, I am sure they began to learn of the Tanakh and of course, grew through Paul's letters. My point here, is that though the Bible may be useful for our edification (and I want to be clear - I do not consider the Bible to be man's invention) it is not necessary for our salvation.
Thank you for your insight, I think it makes a lot of sense. Nothing is complete, including our hearing, which is why we need the Bible - it is our mirror when we forget what we look like. But if a man could clearly hear what the Spirit says and was obedient, would there be need of a Bible? How did Paul and the other apostles come to know what to write down for the Scriptures? Should we not grow to be as mature in Christ as they were?
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RE: Does the Bible Say It Is God's Word? - 10/9/2008 3:34:30 PM
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SophiesLadder
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quote:
There is no basis for equating them exclusively such that if one has the scriptures he has the WOG.
Therefore though they have the scriptures they do not have the Word of God.
Agreed. My claim is that the indwelling Spirit aids in that interpretation, because He wrote it. He divides the fleshly, worldly interpretations from the spiritual. "For the Word of God is sharper than a two-edged sword...able to divide the soul from the spirit." That's the Spirit, not simply the Bible. The words on the pages of the Bible must come alive to us..."The Word of God is quick an powerful....."
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RE: Does the Bible Say It Is God's Word? - 10/10/2008 1:18:57 AM
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phyl2
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quote:
The people I referred to were Greek Gentiles. They had a little or no knowledge of Judaism and if they did they probably considered it backwater. The gospel was delivered to them with power and authority, through preaching - through spiritual, not written media.
Actually, many of the early Greek gentile converts did have a knowledge of Judaism and actually embraced it. They were familiar with the Scriptures. Read Acts. In every city, Paul went first to the synagogue, and if there were not enough local Jews for a synagogue, he would go to the place where any local Jews gathered. He presented the Gospel first to the Jews, and usually there were "God-fearers" - gentiles who had become fed up with the pagan worship system and culture and who were drawn to the Jewish faith. Later he would present the gospel to other people.
Read Acts 17, where Luke describes the Bereans who would listen eagerly to what Paul had to say and then would search the scriptures to see if what Paul said was true.
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RE: Does the Bible Say It Is God's Word? - 10/10/2008 6:43:14 AM
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SophiesLadder
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phyl2
Actually, many of the early Greek gentile converts did have a knowledge of Judaism and actually embraced it. They were familiar with the Scriptures. Read Acts.
Read Acts 17, where Luke describes the Bereans who would listen eagerly to what Paul had to say and then would search the scriptures to see if what Paul said was true.
Good information, I'll meditate on it. A couple of points. Certainly, Judaism was dispersed into many countries at that time. But having a synagogue in a city may say more about the tolerance of the people in general than it does about their familiarity and approval of Judaism. In other words, a religion may have a place of worship in my city and I may not know a thing about it, other than it exists.
As for Acts 17, the Bereans who searched the Scriptures were Jews and I would expect them to do that. But were Gentiles unfamiliar with the Tanakh expected to embrace Judaism first? At any rate, even if the Gentiles knew of the Old Testament, in Thessalonica the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not written down.
I think the question remains for the Gentile unfamiliar with Judaism as to how the Gospel was preached and conversion attained. The Gentile may be, but need not be, familiar with the Scriptures.
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RE: Does the Bible Say It Is God's Word? - 10/10/2008 11:57:47 AM
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phyl2
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quote:
Good information, I'll meditate on it. A couple of points. Certainly, Judaism was dispersed into many countries at that time. But having a synagogue in a city may say more about the tolerance of the people in general than it does about their familiarity and approval of Judaism. In other words, a religion may have a place of worship in my city and I may not know a thing about it, other than it exists.
In our culture, now, that may be the case. But, in the Hellenized world, the Greek culture was to be very interested in philosophy and religion. During the silent 400 years between the Old Testament and the New, the Jews living in dispersion became involved in the society of their locations, and engaged in debate with the Greeks concerning philosophy and religion. Many of the gentiles had become disillusioned with the decadence of the Greek way of life and were drawn to the Hebrew way of life.
This was how God prepared the world for the coming of the Messiah. Greeks became familiar with the Old Testament and it's terminology, and a number of them were drawn to it.
quote:
As for Acts 17, the Bereans who searched the Scriptures were Jews and I would expect them to do that. But were Gentiles unfamiliar with the Tanakh expected to embrace Judaism first? At any rate, even if the Gentiles knew of the Old Testament, in Thessalonica the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not written down.
Look again, there were many gentiles present, and many of those beleived:
quote:
11.Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
12.Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men. Acts 17:11-12
In fact, the first century Christians were so successful using the Septuagint to spread the Gospel that the antagonist Jews who did not believe requested a new Greek translation of the Old Testament scriptures. We know of three or four other translations that were made.
quote:
I think the question remains for the Gentile unfamiliar with Judaism as to how the Gospel was preached and conversion attained. The Gentile may be, but need not be, familiar with the Scriptures.
You are right, the gentile need not be familiar with the Scriptures. In fact, a passage in Romans or Hebrews states that God left enough evidence in the world around us that testifies to Him. The Holy Spirit uses any means He chooses to draw unbelievers to Him.
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RE: Does the Bible Say It Is God's Word? - 10/10/2008 5:20:24 PM
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SophiesLadder
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quote:
...in the Hellenized world, the Greek culture was to be very interested in philosophy and religion.
Yet Paul has to introduce God to the Athenians as "the unknown God", despite the fact that there is a synagogue in the city.
quote:
Look again, there were many gentiles present, and many of those beleived:
12.Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men. Acts 17:11-12
I read this to say that both Jew and Greek were saved, but not HOW the gospel was preached to them.
quote:
In fact, the first century Christians were so successful using the Septuagint to spread the Gospel that the antagonist Jews who did not believe requested a new Greek translation of the Old Testament scriptures. We know of three or four other translations that were made.
What's the source of your information, or where can I read more? I'm interested in this. If Judaism had an impact on the Hellenized world, I want to learn about it.
quote:
You are right, the gentile need not be familiar with the Scriptures. In fact, a passage in Romans or Hebrews states that God left enough evidence in the world around us that testifies to Him. The Holy Spirit uses any means He chooses to draw unbelievers to Him.
Which is my real point, since it is the Holy Spirit that convicts. I would expect Paul and other apostles to preach Jesus as the Messiah to the Jews. But why would I care, I being a first century Gentile, whether Jesus is the fulfillment of Israel's "Messiah"? I would be much more interested to know that He died for my sins and is my personal Savior. Also, I think we can learn from the names of those in the early church what their cultural influence was: Hermas, Hermes, Philologus, Julia, Olympas, Epaphroditus, Fortunatas, Apollos, etc.
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RE: Does the Bible Say It Is God's Word? - 10/10/2008 5:35:19 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SophiesLadder
I think the question remains for the Gentile unfamiliar with Judaism as to how the Gospel was preached and conversion attained. The Gentile may be, but need not be, familiar with the Scriptures.
This question is a bit different from that raised by the title. However, I would say it is possible to be saved without the written word. This is how salvation came to Noach and Avram. But, to truly understand the plan of salvation, one would have to recieve revelation similar to that in the Scriptures. Some have postulated that Socrates may very well have been such an one, though Plato and Aristotle with there physical/spiritual dicatomies seem to be attached to the gods of Greece.
There also were many gentiles who were part of Israel. We are told that we were a mixed multitude when we left Eygpt. Though some rabbinic schools did there best to keep Gentiles away, it appears to me that this has never been the intent of The Creator.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Does the Bible Say It Is God's Word? - 10/11/2008 4:48:23 AM
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phyl2
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quote:
Yet Paul has to introduce God to the Athenians as "the unknown God", despite the fact that there is a synagogue in the city.
Paul was introducing the God that they had heard about when discussing with the Jews, and showing them that He is the God that they knew deep down inside was the God they should have been worshipping. He was pointing out to them the emptiness of their theology which lead them to raise an altar to an unknown God because they knew their own gods were insufficient.
quote:
What's the source of your information, or where can I read more? I'm interested in this. If Judaism had an impact on the Hellenized world, I want to learn about it.
I don't know if I have a Bibliography written down anywhere. I researched this a number of years ago as a result of a KJVO conversation I had with someone who believed the Septuagint not only wasn't a pre-Christian translation, he also believed that the Jews would not have allowed or cooperated with the scriptures being translated into Greek. So, I studied any resource I could find which dealt with the exile, post-exile, intertestamental times. As I researched, I not only came to believed that the Septuagint was what we are told it was - a pre-Christian translation of the Old Testament into Greek; I also began to understand how God used the exile, the dispersion, and the Septuagint to prepare the world for the coming of the Messiah. I tell you, it gave me goosebumps!
quote:
Which is my real point, since it is the Holy Spirit that convicts. I would expect Paul and other apostles to preach Jesus as the Messiah to the Jews. But why would I care, I being a first century Gentile, whether Jesus is the fulfillment of Israel's "Messiah"? I would be much more interested to know that He died for my sins and is my personal Savior. Also, I think we can learn from the names of those in the early church what their cultural influence was: Hermas, Hermes, Philologus, Julia, Olympas, Epaphroditus, Fortunatas, Apollos, etc.
I guess Paul and the others would preach from whatever angle they percieved would teach the need of the hearers, just as Jesus did. Jesus did not speak with each seeker in the same way, He spoke with each one in a way that addressed their need - one way to the Samaritan woman, another way to Nicodemus, etc.
The Greek cultural influence was everywhere, even in Israel, where we find Greek names given to some of the cities, etc.
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RE: Does the Bible Say It Is God's Word? - 10/13/2008 10:33:39 AM
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SophiesLadder
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I've done some further research on the issue of the Jew in the hellenized Roman Empire and published it under "The Tanakh and the Gospel" on my website, www.sophiesladder.com if anyone would care to read it and comment on it here.
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RE: Does the Bible Say It Is God's Word? - 10/16/2008 11:41:16 PM
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SamsonUSA
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" All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, throughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17
" The entirety of Your word is truth " Psalm 119:160
God is not silent. He has spoken, and He has done so in the Bible, the " oracles of God " Romans 3:2 ; Hebrews 5:12
_____________________________
I lift my eyes unto the hills
Where does my help come from?
My help comes from the Lord
The Maker of Heaven and earth!
Casting Crowns
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RE: Does the Bible Say It Is God's Word? - 10/17/2008 12:03:52 AM
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Fwanger
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SamsonUSA
" All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, throughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17
" The entirety of Your word is truth " Psalm 119:160
God is not silent. He has spoken, and He has done so in the Bible, the " oracles of God " Romans 3:2 ; Hebrews 5:12
Actually, 4:12 for Hebrews, but that is the one that immediately came to my mind when I saw this thread:
"For the Word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."- Hebrews 4:12
I think that verse alone makes a pretty good argument for even Scripture stating that its God's Word. There's so much truth to that verse. Reading the Bible can pierce through your conscience and every defense you have erected for yourself and allow you to truly see yourself for what you are, i.e., piercing even to the division of soul and spirit.
Awesome question and interesting thought though. Jesus is the Word, and Scripture is the Word. I think that Christ takes precedence too though, huh? lol
_____________________________
Often have I said, I will never doubt the salvation of any one, so long as I can but know that Christ has accepted me. C.H. Spurgeon "The Way of Salvation"
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RE: Does the Bible Say It Is God's Word? - 10/17/2008 12:32:56 AM
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SamsonUSA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fwanger
quote:
ORIGINAL: SamsonUSA
" All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, throughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17
" The entirety of Your word is truth " Psalm 119:160
God is not silent. He has spoken, and He has done so in the Bible, the " oracles of God " Romans 3:2 ; Hebrews 5:12
Actually, 4:12 for Hebrews, but that is the one that immediately came to my mind when I saw this thread:
"For the Word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."- Hebrews 4:12
I think that verse alone makes a pretty good argument for even Scripture stating that its God's Word. There's so much truth to that verse. Reading the Bible can pierce through your conscience and every defense you have erected for yourself and allow you to truly see yourself for what you are, i.e., piercing even to the division of soul and spirit.
Awesome question and interesting thought though. Jesus is the Word, and Scripture is the Word. I think that Christ takes precedence too though, huh? lol
Good call on Hebrews 4:12. I was actually using 5:12 to point out that feeding on the word are the " first principles of the oracles of God "
_____________________________
I lift my eyes unto the hills
Where does my help come from?
My help comes from the Lord
The Maker of Heaven and earth!
Casting Crowns
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RE: Does the Bible Say It Is God's Word? - 10/17/2008 12:45:26 AM
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Fwanger
Posts: 346
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Phillipsburg, NJ
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Ah, guess I should be paying better attention. Midnight when the brain is half asleep doesn't seem the best time to try to sound like I know what I'm talking about huh? lol
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Often have I said, I will never doubt the salvation of any one, so long as I can but know that Christ has accepted me. C.H. Spurgeon "The Way of Salvation"
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