Can any of my Arab/Middle Eastern friends help me out with this one...
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Can any of my Arab/Middle Eastern friends help me out w... - 9/27/2008 2:33:49 AM
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StephenJ
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Odd thread title I know, and in truth the conversation is open to everyone but specifically I was hoping to hear from any of my fellow forum members who are Arabs or of Middle Eastern descent.
This week I asked a certain girl (an Arab-American) who I'm interested in out for a bite to eat. She politely told me no for reasons ranging from wanting to focus on studies, to needing to spend more time with her family. The most interesting thing (to me anyway) she said was that in many Arab famlies they don't really date. I commented that I know her brother (a friend of mine) is dating someone whom I've met. She then told me something very interesting. She seemed to imply that culturally, and in her family, it was kind of seen as okay for the boys to go out and date, but the girls are not suppouse to. I don't know if this stems from the idea that they need to be protected, or what but I thought it was pretty wild (and unfair.) Can any of you shed some light on this for me?
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RE: Can any of my Arab/Middle Eastern friends help me o... - 9/27/2008 8:24:09 AM
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manda59
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Is she a Christian or Muslim?
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RE: Can any of my Arab/Middle Eastern friends help me o... - 9/27/2008 10:43:42 AM
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GregandJenny
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Go out and research the Arab/ Muslim culture. Just as American Tradition has been influenced by Christianity the Middle East and Arab Culture has been influenced by Islam.
G
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RE: Can any of my Arab/Middle Eastern friends help me o... - 9/27/2008 12:01:18 PM
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AdrianaS
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quote:
She then told me something very interesting. She seemed to imply that culturally, and in her family, it was kind of seen as okay for the boys to go out and date, but the girls are not suppouse to. I don't know if this stems from the idea that they need to be protected, or what but I thought it was pretty wild (and unfair.) Can any of you shed some light on this for me?
Yes, I can as this behaviour is commom to traditional cultures and even if a country is becoming more secular or you move to more secular culture, there are traditional families values into place.
The motive males are allowed to date and girls are not, is because casual "dates" may very much do end up into inappropriate stuff and sex. To a man is ok to keep going if the woman he is dating allows him so etc a girls in tradional cultures are to be protected from casual stuff and to be cort to be married... a woman "cannot" act as a male and giving herself this away, she loses her value giving away so freely , she is to keep herself to serious relationship etc man interested in a girl from traditional culture and family, must be friend with her family get to visit and engage with her family (well this part comes easier when you do belong to same culture or at least have family dinamics similar going on in your family) family must get to know the man and will ask many stuff as his family will engage with hers at somepoint soon etc its family affair because when someone marries they will belong, really, to each others families etc
In traditional cultures of course are differences in etiquete cultural behaviour, as there are different "dances" couples play as "romancing and/or cort" goes etc people of those cultures do understand those ways. As may still commom in those cultures that males may behave different reggarding foreigners females, as engaging in stuff with them that they do not with the women of their culture. Simple because women from different culture are seen as "easy". Some women who travels to other cultures must be careful when "dating" males as do not believe the romancing stuff they play so quickly etc etc but many nowdays are looking just for adventures and do not care much anyways.
Some people may say its double standards, yes it may be, but in my oppinion there is not much difference reggarding the behavior of traditional ways of cultures as to keep one self pure and families protecting their women, of course the diference is the males behaviour that to keep pure do not apply for them, particularly when women are offering themselves to them they have to take as they are not gay also etc..
I did grow up in traditional Patriarchal upbringing, I am not Arab, but still I do think some stuff is familiar behaviour to tradional families and cutures.
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RE: Can any of my Arab/Middle Eastern friends help me o... - 9/27/2008 1:32:17 PM
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AdrianaS
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More information, this time from Arab cultural perspectives etc:
"American-style dating is virtually non-existent among all but the most assimilated Arab Americans. Dating conflicts with strict cultural norms about female chastity and its relationship to the honor of the woman and her family. The norm stipulates that a female should be chaste prior to marriage and remain faithful once wed. Similar standards apply to males, but expectations are reduced and the consequences of violations are not as severe. The ethics relating to female chastity cut across social class, religious denomination, and even ethnic lines, as they are found with equal vigor in virtually every Middle Eastern ethnic and national group. Real or alleged violations of the sexual mores by a female damages not only her reputation and diminishes her chances of finding a suitable marriage partner, but also shames her family, especially her male kinsmen."
Arab-Americans traditions and ways
The American dating style is not embraced or understood by myself also...
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RE: Can any of my Arab/Middle Eastern friends help me o... - 9/27/2008 4:58:41 PM
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StephenJ
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Sorry about the confusion, the girl in question is a very devoted Christian and is a member of my Bible study. She's very involved with the church, and has a personal relationship with Christ. Same is true for her brother. She and her family are not Muslims.
I don't really know if I believe in this idea of "asking her parents for permission." I'd be willing to if she really felt strongly about it, but for me it just seems so...archaic.
Deermousie: It's funny you should say that. It's odd because there was a thread I was reading in another forum here about where the idea of everyone having a destined "someone" comes from. I'm not sure if it's entierly Biblically based is the conclusion I came to. I can't think of many Bible stories where that is demonstrated.
Anyway, I sent her a message on Myspace. Hopefully she'll read it and we can talk some more about it.
Oh and Adrian I like your avatar...Avengers Assemble!
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RE: Can any of my Arab/Middle Eastern friends help me o... - 9/27/2008 5:34:53 PM
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RubySparkles
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I'm neither Arab nor American, but I think that if you're genuinely interested in this girl you will have to consider adjustments to accommodate her culture. She will have to do likewise, but I suspect that the greater load will be on you. The depth and extent of adjustment you're willing to make is something to prayerfully consider when choosing your life partner.
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RE: Can any of my Arab/Middle Eastern friends help me o... - 9/27/2008 5:42:46 PM
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StephenJ
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I was just asking her out for a date...life partner seems to be rushing things. I just want to get to know her away from our church related activities.
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RE: Can any of my Arab/Middle Eastern friends help me o... - 9/28/2008 1:04:45 PM
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AdrianaS
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StephenJ,
Well, I don't find archaic but nice of course I'm talking about my experience in my family, it was all about reach a certain age and until than we did socialize with family as when we went out brothers and cousins went taking care of we girls. Boys to get to talk to us have to know and be friend our brothers and cousins etc
At same time when I got 17 I was allowed to travel for 2 months to Toronto, at 21 I was free to travel everywhere I wish and my family did not maintain me a prisioner at all. I am greatful for my family values and to help me to see priorities and not let boys be a distraction to my life when I was so young. I am 44 many things have changed in my culture but the Arab culture is steady in their traditions.
Another thing is not a situation that you have to ask permission for her parents to go out with her, but that she cannot go out with any guys on dates. She did already explain she does not date. I do suggest you have wisdom to listen to her and keep listen about her culture and family ways. There are settled rules into place that are not religious but cultural in her Arab culture and Arabs comes in different nations with same mindset eventhough they embrace different religious belief they agree in specif stuff.
By you want to getting to know her in different sets as you say, outside church and the socializing in church etc is a date. Hope if she is allowed to communicate in writting you get to know her and as Ruby said if than you become genuinely interested etc than its necessary to go to the other steps and do it, prayfuly.
People to get involved with other cultures for real, must be respectful and open to learn. To some this comes naturaly to others may not and they end up sticking with their own. I love many things about my culture and others also.
Thanks for avatar compliment..
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RE: Can any of my Arab/Middle Eastern friends help me o... - 9/28/2008 1:18:30 PM
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StephenJ
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Thanks again Adrian, I do write to her and I have given her my number. So we'll see what happens.
So are there any forum members of Arabic descent here who can give me some personal insight?
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RE: Can any of my Arab/Middle Eastern friends help me o... - 9/30/2008 10:39:14 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
It's not just Arab cultures. My African dh is horrified by American style dating and the behavior of both boys and girls.
It's not archaic, just different. And not necessarily bad, either. Most of Africa has been heavily influenced by Islam as well.
We (from the west) call that 'archaic' as it seems to us to be a throw-back to our own culture in past centuries, where we have 'progressed' past that now. I am not so sure that is really progress.
As Larry Norman once sang: "Sometimes I think that we've advanced, but then I look at where we are."
Dating as we know it is just less than a century old here in the US. Started after WW1 and really took hold after WW2. The promiscuity associated with it is disgusting.
To the OP:
Consider speaking to her father for his permission to get to know her and be very careful to follow his instructions to the letter.
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RE: Can any of my Arab/Middle Eastern friends help me o... - 10/1/2008 4:39:47 PM
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allisonbrett
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StephenJ,
Just a bit of wisdom that my mom shared with me. I know you're not thinking about her being a life partner at this time but never date anyone you wouldn't marry. If she is of an Arab culture then it is part of who she is. They may appear to be rather archaic but in the same thought, very tradional. She may avoid dating merely to protect herself from getting too familiar with an individual. Instead of a "date" how about asking her to join you and some friends as a group on an outing. This way, she gets to know you in a group setting and visa versa.
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RE: Can any of my Arab/Middle Eastern friends help me o... - 10/1/2008 6:52:49 PM
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ptz
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Hello, i would like to say that your question is certainly right up my alley. I am a 27 year old girl ( with an arab father) who got married 2 years ago to my husband. I would like to say that my relationship with my father is extremely strained and basically 'ruined' because I chose to go against arab culture when it comes to dating/relationships. Basically, girls are not really allowed to have boyfriends no matter how old you are. They way that arabs approach marriage for their girls, is more of 'loose arranged marriages' . what i mean by that is: is that the father knows another family with a male that might be a good 'suitor' and knows his parents well, and the fathers/mothers introduce their children to each other, and see what happens. Its not like the man and woman who have been introduced cant 'choose' to still be with someone else, but it is 'encouraged' for them to get to know each other and marry, since their parents are friends, or they are of the same economic class (i.e each set of parents has alot of money) etc. When i was 25, i STILL wasnt 'allowed' to date. But i met my now husband at 24 (who was my boyfriend at the time in secret ), and knew that i wanted to be with him for the rest of my life, and i sacrificed the relationship with my father, and went 'against his wishes' and married him. My father did not attend my wedding (even though he was invited), and i have talked to him maybe 3 times in the past 3 years. I have sacrificed so much in order to be with the man i love. I have absolutely NO regrets marrying my husband. ( and no, he is not arab). Believe me, this girl that you are talking about possibly wanting to get to know better, might very well have interest in you, but may be 'scared' because of what she might have to go through if it turns into something more serious. I seriously made myself sick for 1 year, because i knew all of the pain and anguish i was going to have to go through with my father for the man i wanted to be with. I would cry myself to sleep many nights knowing the hell that i was going to have to go through in order to marry the man IIII wanted. I guarantee you she is more than scared, more likely terrified. I knew since i was about 10 that since my dad was arab, i was going to have an extremely hard time when it came time for me to marry, and i was right. i used to just try and force myself to believe that i wanted to be single for the rest of my life, when i really didnt. just to avoid having to go through everything. Believe me, she is most likely scared, and not 'disinterested' in you. All i have to say is that if eventually your relationship with her does blossom, be prepared to support and be there for her, because if she goes through anything like i went through, she will need you so very desperately.
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RE: Can any of my Arab/Middle Eastern friends help me o... - 10/2/2008 10:17:05 PM
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StephenJ
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Well it's interesting.
I talked to her brother last night, he's also a friend of mine. Truth be told I thought he'd be a bit upset at me for asking out his little sister but he was totally cool. He basically confirmed some of the things that PTZ just said. He totally believes that his sister is wise enough to make these decisions but he implied that it could be awkward with their dad.
As for the disinterested vs scared thing. She says she doesn't think we're a good match so I'll respect that. But she also said she'd be willing to date someone eventually, and when given a reason (a person she likes) she'd be willing to confront her dad about it.
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RE: Can any of my Arab/Middle Eastern friends help me o... - 10/4/2008 11:58:16 PM
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StephenJ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: allisonbrett
StephenJ,
Just a bit of wisdom that my mom shared with me. I know you're not thinking about her being a life partner at this time but never date anyone you wouldn't marry. If she is of an Arab culture then it is part of who she is. They may appear to be rather archaic but in the same thought, very tradional. She may avoid dating merely to protect herself from getting too familiar with an individual. Instead of a "date" how about asking her to join you and some friends as a group on an outing. This way, she gets to know you in a group setting and visa versa.
Well that's the point, it's what we do every week at our church. Do our Bible study then hang out with a big group of people after we're done.
This week when I saw her I was concerned things would be awkward. I thought for sure she was nervous around me (to me it seemed like she couldn't even look at me.) When I asked her about it she said that she was thinking that I wouldn't want to talk to her. I guess you can misread things. After that I told her "not to worry about your dad, that eventually he'll see you as the smart, capable woman that I see when I look at you." Not sure how she responded to that, but she seemed a bit suprised
or stunned that I'd say that.
She's a very warm person, it's not like she's afraid of being close to people. She's probably one of the most liberal people I know in regards to giving out hugs. She doesn't need much of an excuse to hug someone. I like that about her. 
As for her culture, she told me about it but I've gotten the distinct impression that she doesn't agree with the idea 100%. She told me that she's kind of "expected" to only be interested in Arab guys. However, I'm not sure she even agrees with that. That's the only reason why I'd even hold out a shred of hope.
< Message edited by StephenJ -- 10/5/2008 12:06:20 AM >
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RE: Can any of my Arab/Middle Eastern friends help me o... - 10/5/2008 2:44:05 PM
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deermousie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephenJ She told me that she's kind of "expected" to only be interested in Arab guys. However, I'm not sure she even agrees with that. That's the only reason why I'd even hold out a shred of hope.
Stephen, this girl faces a lot of unhappiness and family turmoil if she decides to follow American culture and get interested in you. This would be an excellent time for you to "put other's interests ahead of your own" and give up your expectations of anything with her. Sacrifice yourself rather than ask her to sacrifice her family. It would be a loving thing to do. God bless you both.
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RE: Can any of my Arab/Middle Eastern friends help me o... - 10/5/2008 11:01:02 PM
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StephenJ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deermousie
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephenJ She told me that she's kind of "expected" to only be interested in Arab guys. However, I'm not sure she even agrees with that. That's the only reason why I'd even hold out a shred of hope.
Stephen, this girl faces a lot of unhappiness and family turmoil if she decides to follow American culture and get interested in you. This would be an excellent time for you to "put other's interests ahead of your own" and give up your expectations of anything with her. Sacrifice yourself rather than ask her to sacrifice her family. It would be a loving thing to do. God bless you both.
Interesting, it's funny. Most of our mutual friends have been really encouraging.
It's to bad, I think that if she gave it a try, and talked to her dad about it, we'd really hit it off.
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RE: Can any of my Arab/Middle Eastern friends help me o... - 10/6/2008 8:08:28 AM
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lexie
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quote:
She seemed to imply that culturally, and in her family, it was kind of seen as okay for the boys to go out and date, but the girls are not suppouse to. I don't know if this stems from the idea that they need to be protected, or what but I thought it was pretty wild (and unfair.)
Ok I'm not Arab or Middle Eastern but I live in a neighbourhood that is, have friends of this background and from what I've witnessed it is not necessarily seen as ok for the boys to go out and date, but it is more allowed than for the women. The boys are not encouraged to date. I've seen this not only in dating but in the extent to which both boys and girls are allowed to adapt to the culture they are in.
Besides if the girls aren't allowed to date, then who are the boys dating?
quote:
Stephen, this girl faces a lot of unhappiness and family turmoil if she decides to follow American culture and get interested in you.
I'm going to disagree with this slightly. I've seen many relationships work out in this situation. Often, the concern is that traditions and family values will change or that religion will be set aside or changed (and I think every culture feels that way to a degree). But the fact that this woman and her family are Christian holds well, and if Stephen is willing to respect her family and their culture, then family turmoil shouldn't occur.
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RE: Can any of my Arab/Middle Eastern friends help me o... - 10/7/2008 2:33:11 PM
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StephenJ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
Honestly, I think if you are willing to respect the cultural things, so that her parents don't see you as trying to drag her away from her culture, they'd be willing to consider you, actually. It's often not so much that they don't like people outside thier culture, but see those people as a threat to everything they believe is good and right, and as a threat to the purity and good character of their children.
Hah! Mom look at me, look at me...I'm a bad influence!!!
Honestly, the whole idea of having to ask a girl's parents before you ask her seems so odd to me. It seems like that's the sort of decision she should make on her own.
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RE: Can any of my Arab/Middle Eastern friends help me o... - 10/7/2008 3:13:13 PM
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3cappuccinosmom
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quote:
Hah! Mom look at me, look at me...I'm a bad influence!!!
Well, you may not be. However, you may not realize that people from other cultures often find American culture exceedingly "loose" and rather scary when it comes to sexual purity. I'm sure you're a nice guy, but I am married to a man from east Africa, which has many of the same cultural aspects of Arab countries, so I understand the other side too. I used to get all offended at his assessments of American culture, but now that we are raising children, I am understanding more and more some of his fears for their character and the kind of influence this culture will have on them.
quote:
Honestly, the whole idea of having to ask a girl's parents before you ask her seems so odd to me. It seems like that's the sort of decision she should make on her own.
Just because it seems odd to you doesn't mean it's bad, unBiblical, or unacceptable. My husband finds it odd that American Christians "date" but still insist that their relationships are totally pure. Having watched the culture's definition of dating, he can't wrap his head around the possibility that someone might date 10 or 20 people before marrying and still remain completely physically and emotionally untouched.
And, honestly, asking her parents is something that has been in Western culture as well. Just being respectful of them does not take away her decision. She can still reject you even if they approve you. 
Our pastor has actually been preaching on culture/preference vs. Kingdom the last few months. Any cultural or preferential thing that is unGodly cannot be brought with us when we come into the Kingdom. However, cultural and preferential things that are not unGodly should not cause division and bad feelings within the Kingdom. One of the big failings in the Western church has been the idea that any culture we send missionaries to must conform to *our* culture in order to be *truly* Christian.
Ultimately, the point is, if you can't stand their way of doing things, best not to pursue this particular girl, because you will either be stuck with that culture, or be viewed as the man who seduced her away from it. Not great either way. 
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RE: Can any of my Arab/Middle Eastern friends help me o... - 10/8/2008 3:29:35 PM
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StephenJ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
Hah! Mom look at me, look at me...I'm a bad influence!!!
Well, you may not be. However, you may not realize that people from other cultures often find American culture exceedingly "loose" and rather scary when it comes to sexual purity. I'm sure you're a nice guy, but I am married to a man from east Africa, which has many of the same cultural aspects of Arab countries, so I understand the other side too. I used to get all offended at his assessments of American culture, but now that we are raising children, I am understanding more and more some of his fears for their character and the kind of influence this culture will have on them.
quote:
Honestly, the whole idea of having to ask a girl's parents before you ask her seems so odd to me. It seems like that's the sort of decision she should make on her own.
Just because it seems odd to you doesn't mean it's bad, unBiblical, or unacceptable. My husband finds it odd that American Christians "date" but still insist that their relationships are totally pure. Having watched the culture's definition of dating, he can't wrap his head around the possibility that someone might date 10 or 20 people before marrying and still remain completely physically and emotionally untouched.
And, honestly, asking her parents is something that has been in Western culture as well. Just being respectful of them does not take away her decision. She can still reject you even if they approve you.
Our pastor has actually been preaching on culture/preference vs. Kingdom the last few months. Any cultural or preferential thing that is unGodly cannot be brought with us when we come into the Kingdom. However, cultural and preferential things that are not unGodly should not cause division and bad feelings within the Kingdom. One of the big failings in the Western church has been the idea that any culture we send missionaries to must conform to *our* culture in order to be *truly* Christian.
Ultimately, the point is, if you can't stand their way of doing things, best not to pursue this particular girl, because you will either be stuck with that culture, or be viewed as the man who seduced her away from it. Not great either way.
Good points, and I happen to agree on the idea that we don't need to "Americanize" when we do overseas mission trips. The thing that has me thinking though is that neither her brother or her seem to agree with the idea (it's the impression I got.) They seem pretty open to the idea of doing things the way Americans do.
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