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RE: Birth control - 4/9/2008 7:03:31 PM
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Bluethread
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We appear to be encouraged by the Scriptures to have as many children as possible. However, the commandments seem to indicate that we should accept responsibility for all we do. Therefore, I think this is something that needs to be decided by a couple before they marry and there should be agreement. I would call this a serious deal breaker if the betrothed can not agree. If the decision needs to be made after marrage, then I think it would be best to take precausions to avoid pregnancy until there is agreement. That said, if it happens, B'ruch Ha Shem(Blessed be the Name).
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 4/9/2008 7:11:03 PM >
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RE: Birth control - 4/9/2008 8:19:30 PM
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called2valor
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Many birth control methods kill or could potentially kill an already fertilized egg. Those methods that even have the possibility to do so should be considered with the utmost gravity, because they may murder of a forming human life.
Murder is certainly the breaking of a commandment. We cannot return life once it is taken, so I think that should be the first thought in even deciding whether one uses birth control or not and if so, what form(s).
Peace
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RE: Birth control - 4/9/2008 8:29:12 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
We appear to be encouraged by the Scriptures to have as many children as possible.
That point can be strongly debated.
I'll go ahead and offer my opinions. Taking control of that aspect of your life is no different than taking control over your career, your choice in friends, your choice of a spouse. I think Blue is right that it's something that's best ironed out before marriage. Having children is a huge deal, so if there isn't 100% agreement on the issue, it would be a thing best avoided.
Now, if you're really feeling led to have a significant number of kids (or a significant probability thereof), that's one thing. Abandoning birth control due to a fear that "taking control" of certain aspects of your life is quite another.
We all take control over many things in life - at least what we think is control. Birth control fails, cars occasionally slide on the ice and go out of control. Stuff happens. Still, we do what we can to manage our risks and our opportunities. We make choices that have impacts. In the end God, however, is in control.
I find that in evangelical circles, there is a bit of a fear of being active and purposeful in making major decisions like this. We tend to feel that it's not being spiritual and evidences a lack of faith. I think we sometimes feel like major decisions should be left up to God and that I shouldn't try to influence the outcome. My perspective is different. God gave me a mind with the expectation that I should use it to manage my life as best I see fit using his Word as a benchmark.
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RE: Birth control - 4/9/2008 8:32:26 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: called2valor
Many birth control methods kill or could potentially kill an already fertilized egg. Those methods that even have the possibility to do so should be considered with the utmost gravity, because they may murder of a forming human life.
Murder is certainly the breaking of a commandment. We cannot return life once it is taken, so I think that should be the first thought in even deciding whether one uses birth control or not and if so, what form(s).
Peace
BTW-I'm assuming here that we're talking nonlethal forms of birth control, of which there are many. It's a good discussion to have with your doctor before deciding on any particular path.
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RE: Birth control - 4/9/2008 8:45:20 PM
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GroupW
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Cool Garrison Keillor quote by the way. I love that one.
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RE: Birth control - 4/9/2008 10:53:52 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
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I am against any abortive birth control method, which is why I disagree with the pill or the IUD.
Within marriage, I have no problem with condoms, diaphragms, or even a tubal or vasectomy when one is finished. My personal belief is that yes, children are a blessing, but there is also the stewardship issue. I also believe that with a married couple, their first priority should be God, their second each other, and after that comes their children. I, personally think the no birth control view blurs this line. I also think God created marital intimacy for bonding between husband and wife, and for pleasure between husband and wife, as well as for pro creation, and to me the no BC whatsoever view muddles that and seems to view marital intimacy as ONLY for procreation.
I have also been somewhat turned off by the no birth control people I have met in real life, they have come across as arrogant, and thinking that the more children you have, the more Godly you are. Kind of a hard contest for me to win, cause I'm single  , or for the infertile couple to win, or for the couple who got married late to win, or for the woman who stopped at two kids because she got ovarian cancer to win.
I have also not been greatly thrilled with some of the QF people I have seen in the media. They preach all this "God will provide" stuff, and then accept freebies from TV shows that never would have filmed them in the first place if they hadn't had so many kids, so to me it is almost like they are using their kids. I've also seem many oldest girls in QF families become 2nd moms before their time.
That being said, the no birth control people(By the way, we call it QuiverFull here, QF for short), I have met here on CW seem to be different. They seem to be more about letting God be in control, and I will take that attitude over and above the other any day. Maggie already knows that I respect what she is as a QFer more than I was ever able to respect anyone else with those views, right Maggie?  She is not out for a numbers contest, she does put God, husband, and children in that order, and she does see the bonding/pleasure aspect of marital intimacy as important.
All that being said, I have never been married, so you can take my opinion with a grain of salt.
< Message edited by OneOfHisJewels -- 4/9/2008 11:07:17 PM >
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RE: Birth control - 4/9/2008 11:12:13 PM
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granolagirl
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Just for the record, my husband and I are on the same page. The main reason we don't like BC is because we are not exactly thrilled with most of the options. I won't get into that though.
Also, my original post definitely refers to the nonlethal forms.
quote:
ORIGINAL: OneOfHisJewels
I am against any abortive birth control method, which is why I disagree with the pill or the IUD.
I have also been somewhat turned off by the no birth control people I have met in real life, they have come across as arrogant, and thinking that the more children you have, the more Godly you are. Kind of a hard contest for me to win, cause I'm single , or for the infertile couple to win, or for the couple who got married late to win, or for the woman who stopped at two kids because she got ovarian cancer to win.
I have also not been greatly thrilled with some of the QF people I have seen in the media. They preach all this "God will provide" stuff, and then accept freebies from TV shows that never would have filmed them in the first place if they hadn't had so many kids, so to me it is almost like they are using their kids. I've also seem many oldest girls in QF families become 2nd moms before their time.
Rebekah, I definitey agree with you here.
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RE: Birth control - 4/10/2008 6:52:00 AM
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car2ner
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Nice Post Group W. It has been my experience that we try to make responsible choices and God takes care of the rest. Most birth control methods fail so God can still bring that babe into a family despite ourselves.
I do think we should err on the side of caution with abortive devices. I personally don't think that is valid birth control. M'love and I are at an age where we aren't going to have children, our children will someday have children. So m'love took a trip to the doc. Not that if we had a child now we wouldn't love it but it is now time to turn our resources to other aspects of life.
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RE: Birth control - 4/10/2008 10:05:42 AM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
Most birth control methods fail so God can still bring that babe into a family despite ourselves.
I have an 8-yeard old bit of evidence to back up that statement. Originally, we didn't feel called to be parents and had decided we weren't going to have kids. Then we got a dog. The weekend we got a dog, we also got pregnant. Well, one of us did anyway.
(Hint: It wasn't the dog.)
< Message edited by GroupW -- 4/10/2008 1:29:28 PM >
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RE: Birth control - 4/10/2008 3:24:05 PM
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GroupW
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It's a cool thing when you feel so strongly about your kid(s) that it just seems like the world needs them.
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RE: Birth control - 4/10/2008 3:31:24 PM
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elastic
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my dh and i use bc because it is right for us. i find it funny that some of the same people who have problems with couples using BC by "preventing God from having control" see no problem in many fertility treatments. i'm sorry, but if you say God controls your having or not having children, then trying to purposely have children by using fertility methods is just as bad if not worse than preventing pregnancy.
i think this is something that is between each couple and God though, and i don't pay any attention to people who misquote scripture by telling me that i'm not doing God's will, or that I don't have enough faith, or whatever the flavor of the month answer is. We are doing what we believe God's will for us is at the moment. that could change tomorrow, or it could change next week, but for now, we believe we are in His will for our lives, and using our minds and intellect to prevent pregnancy at this time.
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RE: Birth control - 4/10/2008 3:35:46 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BlessedMamaofmany
I think scritpure supports letting God control ALL aspects of our lives, and why should we apptempt to control something we really have no control over anyway?
Maybe I'm dense, but I completely fail to understand this point of view. We clearly control some of our lives. We choose (or at least influence) where we live, where we work, who our friends are, who we marry. We choose what we eat for dinner. The list of our choices is as long as the list of things that were chosen for us. Do I then make no choices at all? If I do, why is the choice of kids any different than the choice of my career, location, or friends?
Something tells me this is one of those things that I'm probably never going to really get.
Thus is the glory of the Christian life - many parts, many ideas, but one body. For those that choose no BC and the risk of lots of kids, you've got my respect. I couldn't do it. For those that choose BC and to limit the number of kids, my advice would be to feel no guilt in exercising some control over one's life.
In the words of a famous philosopher - "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
(Galileo Galilei / 1564-1642)
Sorry, that sounds harsh but it's not my intent in the least. It just expresses well how I approach issues like this.
Enjoy the day, folks.
BT
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RE: Birth control - 4/10/2008 3:50:54 PM
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GroupW
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Wow. And I would have to say I'm not used to people agreeing with me! Not sure how to handle that.
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RE: Birth control - 4/10/2008 3:53:06 PM
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KatMack
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GroupW, excellent post. You said what I wanted to say but couldn't figure out of to word properly!
--Kat
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RE: Birth control - 4/10/2008 5:34:25 PM
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GroupW
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Questions then come to my mind:
- are there two commandments, or only one. Is it "be fruitul and fill the earth", or is it "1) Be fruitful. 2) Fill the earth"
- If it's one commandment, then haven't we filled it enough? Isn't 6, or 7 or 8 billion people enough? At what point is a commandment fulfilled. Personally, I'm wondering if God isn't saying, "Enough already, folks!"
- Does being "fruitful" necessitate having children? Can I choose to be fruitful in other ways?
- Are there limits to being "fruitful". Is one child enough to satisfy that requirement, or must I have 2 or 3? Is 2 or 3 enough? If there is no specific number, shouldn't I then have as many as I am physically able?
- What if I know that I'm not in a position to be a parent? Am I still commanded to have children?
If you take this commandment to the extreme, it rapidly becomes nonsensical. The key issue here is that at some point, I have to make a decision and take some measure of control. At some point, you still are forced to make decisions and use reason.
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RE: Birth control - 4/10/2008 6:09:06 PM
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Bluethread
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Yes, taken literally we are to have birth control. In other words we are to be responsible for our actions. That includes not just having children to bless the earth. It also includes protecting society from those children and those children from society. Before we engage in "risky behavior" we need to be prepared to provide for those children so they are not be burden on but an enhancement of society. We also need to be prepared to folow the Shema so that they are protected and able to protect themselves from social threats. That is to teach your children when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down and when you rise up.
By "risky behavior" I mean any exchange of bodily fluids. When I taught my children about probabilities, I made sure they understood that even if the odds are 1000 to 1 against conceiving it still only takes one time. Also, one must protect the health of ones reproductive system just in case one should concieve.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Birth control - 4/10/2008 9:30:36 PM
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phosadaud
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God blessed us with brains and the ability to use them. He doesn't call us to live life without thinking and just waiting to see what happens. If we seek Him, He will answer. So, seek Him in your decision to get married, seek Him in your career path, seek Him in the decision regarding children. I wear a seatbelt when I drive my car, not because I don't trust God to protect me, but because I believe it's one way God DOES protect me. I don't wait for doors to open because I believe God will magically open doors in the path He wants me to take. I believe He says FOLLOW ME and if a door gets in the way, He'll give us the strength to bust that baby down.
Each person needs to seek God's will. It has nothing to do with how we view "children". I know one couple in our church where the husband just had a vasectomy after they had 2 girls. You may think that means they are "anti-kid" but it's because what God placed on their heart was foster kids and adoption. That is what THEY believe God is calling to do, and they believe that God is USING the vasectomy to enable them to better do this. And they are.
Another couple I know only has one child. The mom has pretty severe diabetes. To continue having kids would kill her. They are complete devoted to their one child and love kids. Their love for their child means that instead of having more and risking that child growing up without a mother, they will stop.
Other couples I know are simply called to other things. That's ok folks. The "commandment" to be fruitful and multiply is not one that God calls everyone person out there to obey like for instance the commandment not to murder people. Contrary to what is posted around here sometimes, "Be fruitful and multiply" is not one of the 10 commandments. Actually, what many miss is the entire verse:
"Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground" Who was God speaking to? Adam and Eve. Context people! Context! This is not a law. This was before the law. This was what God called on Adam and Eve to do. And they did.
Some can't have children. They aren't breaking the commandment because they are barren. For others it would be immoral (like me - as I am single). For still others, God has called them to some other ministry in which they simply would not be able to be as effective with a herd of kids following them around.
It's not for any of us to judge what God calls each individual to and that's what REALLY makes me angry when people judge another's view of children or another's trust in the Lord based on whether they use birth control or even have kids. That is not only unscriptural, it is wrong. If God doesn't call you to use BC, don't. If God wants you to for a time, do. But let's stop playing I'm a better Christian than you are because I do things this way and you don't. It really gets old fast.
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RE: Birth control - 4/10/2008 9:52:12 PM
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Qtman
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If I could give stars that post would be sporting 5 of them. My wife almost died having our youngest daughter. Sis we take steps to insure she did not get pregnant again. You better believe it. To many people just sit and wait on God to do things He gave them the sense to do themselves. Some of these arguments make as much sense as saying I can take my weapon point it at my head and if God don't want me to shoot myself He will stop the bullet. Sorry folks. Stupidity is not God's fault.
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Dh and I have serious convictions against the use of birth control, and serious problems with the attitude that the Western Church in general has towards children. 
) for the debate this is going to turn into. Granolagirl, pm me if you want to chat about this off-board.
is in Iraq 
