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10 myths about atheism - 4/27/2008 4:04:33 AM
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bombers3602
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http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-op-harris24dec24,0,3994298.story?page=2&coll=la-opinion-rightrail
1) Atheists believe that life is meaningless.
On the contrary, religious people often worry that life is meaningless and imagine that it can only be redeemed by the promise of eternal happiness beyond the grave. Atheists tend to be quite sure that life is precious. Life is imbued with meaning by being really and fully lived. Our relationships with those we love are meaningful now; they need not last forever to be made so. Atheists tend to find this fear of meaninglessness
well
meaningless.
2) Atheism is responsible for the greatest crimes in human history.
People of faith often claim that the crimes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were the inevitable product of unbelief. The problem with fascism and communism, however, is not that they are too critical of religion; the problem is that they are too much like religions. Such regimes are dogmatic to the core and generally give rise to personality cults that are indistinguishable from cults of religious hero worship. Auschwitz, the gulag and the killing fields were not examples of what happens when human beings reject religious dogma; they are examples of political, racial and nationalistic dogma run amok. There is no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable.
3) Atheism is dogmatic.
Jews, Christians and Muslims claim that their scriptures are so prescient of humanity's needs that they could only have been written under the direction of an omniscient deity. An atheist is simply a person who has considered this claim, read the books and found the claim to be ridiculous. One doesn't have to take anything on faith, or be otherwise dogmatic, to reject unjustified religious beliefs. As the historian Stephen Henry Roberts (1901-71) once said: "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
4) Atheists think everything in the universe arose by chance.
No one knows why the universe came into being. In fact, it is not entirely clear that we can coherently speak about the "beginning" or "creation" of the universe at all, as these ideas invoke the concept of time, and here we are talking about the origin of space-time itself.
The notion that atheists believe that everything was created by chance is also regularly thrown up as a criticism of Darwinian evolution. As Richard Dawkins explains in his marvelous book, "The God Delusion," this represents an utter misunderstanding of evolutionary theory. Although we don't know precisely how the Earth's early chemistry begat biology, we know that the diversity and complexity we see in the living world is not a product of mere chance. Evolution is a combination of chance mutation and natural selection. Darwin arrived at the phrase "natural selection" by analogy to the "artificial selection" performed by breeders of livestock. In both cases, selection exerts a highly non-random effect on the development of any species.
5) Atheism has no connection to science.
Although it is possible to be a scientist and still believe in God as some scientists seem to manage it there is no question that an engagement with scientific thinking tends to erode, rather than support, religious faith. Taking the U.S. population as an example: Most polls show that about 90% of the general public believes in a personal God; yet 93% of the members of the National Academy of Sciences do not. This suggests that there are few modes of thinking less congenial to religious faith than science is.
6) Atheists are arrogant.
When scientists don't know something like why the universe came into being or how the first self-replicating molecules formed they admit it. Pretending to know things one doesn't know is a profound liability in science. And yet it is the life-blood of faith-based religion. One of the monumental ironies of religious discourse can be found in the frequency with which people of faith praise themselves for their humility, while claiming to know facts about cosmology, chemistry and biology that no scientist knows. When considering questions about the nature of the cosmos and our place within it, atheists tend to draw their opinions from science. This isn't arrogance; it is intellectual honesty.
7) Atheists are closed to spiritual experience.
There is nothing that prevents an atheist from experiencing love, ecstasy, rapture and awe; atheists can value these experiences and seek them regularly. What atheists don't tend to do is make unjustified (and unjustifiable) claims about the nature of reality on the basis of such experiences. There is no question that some Christians have transformed their lives for the better by reading the Bible and praying to Jesus. What does this prove? It proves that certain disciplines of attention and codes of conduct can have a profound effect upon the human mind. Do the positive experiences of Christians suggest that Jesus is the sole savior of humanity? Not even remotely because Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims and even atheists regularly have similar experiences.
There is, in fact, not a Christian on this Earth who can be certain that Jesus even wore a beard, much less that he was born of a virgin or rose from the dead. These are just not the sort of claims that spiritual experience can authenticate.
8) Atheists believe that there is nothing beyond human life and human understanding.
Atheists are free to admit the limits of human understanding in a way that religious people are not. It is obvious that we do not fully understand the universe; but it is even more obvious that neither the Bible nor the Koran reflects our best understanding of it. We do not know whether there is complex life elsewhere in the cosmos, but there might be. If there is, such beings could have developed an understanding of nature's laws that vastly exceeds our own. Atheists can freely entertain such possibilities. They also can admit that if brilliant extraterrestrials exist, the contents of the Bible and the Koran will be even less impressive to them than they are to human atheists.
From the atheist point of view, the world's religions utterly trivialize the real beauty and immensity of the universe. One doesn't have to accept anything on insufficient evidence to make such an observation.
9) Atheists ignore the fact that religion is extremely beneficial to society.
Those who emphasize the good effects of religion never seem to realize that such effects fail to demonstrate the truth of any religious doctrine. This is why we have terms such as "wishful thinking" and "self-deception." There is a profound distinction between a consoling delusion and the truth.
In any case, the good effects of religion can surely be disputed. In most cases, it seems that religion gives people bad reasons to behave well, when good reasons are actually available. Ask yourself, which is more moral, helping the poor out of concern for their suffering, or doing so because you think the creator of the universe wants you to do it, will reward you for doing it or will punish you for not doing it?
10) Atheism provides no basis for morality.
If a person doesn't already understand that cruelty is wrong, he won't discover this by reading the Bible or the Koran as these books are bursting with celebrations of cruelty, both human and divine. We do not get our morality from religion. We decide what is good in our good books by recourse to moral intuitions that are (at some level) hard-wired in us and that have been refined by thousands of years of thinking about the causes and possibilities of human happiness.
We have made considerable moral progress over the years, and we didn't make this progress by reading the Bible or the Koran more closely. Both books condone the practice of slavery and yet every civilized human being now recognizes that slavery is an abomination. Whatever is good in scripture like the golden rule can be valued for its ethical wisdom without our believing that it was handed down to us by the creator of the universe.
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RE: 10 myths about atheism - 4/27/2008 5:33:54 AM
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SonInMe1
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So wat yer sayin' is dem dar athiests are just gaddum smarter than us here christian type folks???
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: 10 myths about atheism - 4/27/2008 6:22:15 AM
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rlj
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quote:
On the contrary, religious people often worry that life is meaningless and imagine that it can only be redeemed by the promise of eternal happiness beyond the grave.
The abundant life starts when one decides to commit his life to Christ. The Joy that it gives in this life I don't know can even be greater in the next.
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People of faith often claim that the crimes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were the inevitable product of unbelief.
They are the result of a sinful mind that look after itself with no checks and balances.
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An atheist is simply a person who has considered this claim, read the books and found the claim to be ridiculous.
I can't speak for the other 2 but as a christian I am answering some of the statesments and questions posed from the bible. It would be absolutely amazing though if every atheist read all of the holy books to be able to respond with such amazing wisdom.
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Darwin arrived at the phrase "natural selection" by analogy to the "artificial selection" performed by breeders of livestock. In both cases, selection exerts a highly non-random effect on the development of any species.
This case was interesting until this part. How can you have a difference between "natural selection" and "random selection"? Do the animals behave like humans now when choosing who and how to breed with? I haven't read that book yet but this is interesting. Please explain.
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Taking the U.S. population as an example: Most polls show that about 90% of the general public believes in a personal God; yet 93% of the members of the National Academy of Sciences do not. This suggests that there are few modes of thinking less congenial to religious faith than science is.
A "personal god" is quite generic isn't it?
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6) Atheists are arrogant.
Read Josh McDowell's "evidence that demands a verdict". I never considered anyone arrogant for believing the way you say in paragraph 6.
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There is, in fact, not a Christian on this Earth who can be certain that Jesus even wore a beard, much less that he was born of a virgin or rose from the dead.
I can't speak of the beard but the same book I quoted above would apply to the other 2. Remember if there is no virgin birth and no resurrection there is no christianity.
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If there is, such beings could have developed an understanding of nature's laws that vastly exceeds our own. Atheists can freely entertain such possibilities. They also can admit that if brilliant extraterrestrials exist, the contents of the Bible and the Koran will be even less impressive to them than they are to human atheists.
The implied impressiveness I don't think matters. Speaking for me, when I look at the vastness of creation on earth and the things our Creator made that have life I'm excited at the thought of what could be on other worlds. I don't believe the Bible confirms or denies any kind of life on any other planet or system. The four living creatures of revelation were just that - living creatures. They certainly don't look like natives to earth.
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Ask yourself, which is more moral, helping the poor out of concern for their suffering, or doing so because you think the creator of the universe wants you to do it, will reward you for doing it or will punish you for not doing it?
My concern and compassion for the suffering of others is increased by the Spirit that lives in me. I'm not looking to earn Brownies Points doing the things you say and imply and I am not looking to keep out of H E Double Hockey sticks. These things are a part of my life because of changes brought about by submitting myself to Him and His Spirit and a love for people that emanates out because of it.
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We have made considerable moral progress over the years,
We've also greatly digressed.
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Both books condone the practice of slavery and yet every civilized human being now recognizes that slavery is an abomination.
Anyone who has read the bible knows this is incorrect. Slavery isn't condemned anywhere in the bible that I am aware of. It isn't condoned either. It is basically left up to the individual culture to decide with rules and guidelines in the treatment of such people fairly.
_____________________________
-Roger
1 Thess 5:20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. (NIV)
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RE: 10 myths about atheism - 4/27/2008 9:45:40 AM
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mikeman2
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bombers3602
10) Atheism provides no basis for morality.
If a person doesn't already understand that cruelty is wrong, he won't discover this by reading the Bible or the Koran as these books are bursting with celebrations of cruelty, both human and divine. We do not get our morality from religion. We decide what is good in our good books by recourse to moral intuitions that are (at some level) hard-wired in us and that have been refined by thousands of years of thinking about the causes and possibilities of human happiness.
We have made considerable moral progress over the years, and we didn't make this progress by reading the Bible or the Koran more closely. Both books condone the practice of slavery and yet every civilized human being now recognizes that slavery is an abomination. Whatever is good in scripture like the golden rule can be valued for its ethical wisdom without our believing that it was handed down to us by the creator of the universe.
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First of all it is important to recognize that as human being we are wired to accept the morality presented to us by the percieved authority that reigns over us. Case in point is slavery in the States in the 1800's. When slavery was legalized it was considered "OK". However, hundreds of years later after having been made illegal over that same time span slavery is viewed as immoral. Abortion is another example. Before the Supreme court made abortion legal the average consensus was that abortion was immoral. However, after having it made legal for about the last 40 years or so the average consensus is that it is "OK". For the Christian the authority figure will always be God above mankind, thus, the Christians morality is built upon a strong foundation as where the morality of the world is forever changing depending upon the current mood of the "powers that be".
Secondly, slavery in the 1800's is a far cry from that of Biblical times. Slavery in the 1800's was driven by greed. The South needed free labor and they saw an oppurtunity in Africa because Africa at the time sold their own people into slavery. However, our innate moral compus objects to abusing and mistreating our equals thus the slaves were dehumanized as being mere "monkeys". We see the same thing in regards to Jews in Nazi Germany being equated to as vermon or modern day Muslims referring to their adversaries as "infedels" or even the unborn being referred to as a mere fetus. At this point we feel free to treat our inferiors as we see fit based upon our own desires and whims. However, slavery in Biblical times was simply a way to survive. If you could not support yourself and survive you became a slave so that you would at least have a roof over you head and food in your belly. Then after so many years you were given you freedom and a chance to start over again. It was not racially motivated nor was it based upon greed, rather, it was merely a way to survive. In fact, you could make the arguement that people today are slaves in that they made just enough money to put a roof over their head and food in their bellies. You could even agrue that the Biblical system was superior in that not everyone can find a slave like job to care for thier needs. Some, in fact, are uanble to provide for these basic human needs are fall through the cracks of modern day society. Then of course many are so bogged down in debt that they will never see the light of day and will be foreever a slave to other debtors. They, in fact, will never be granted their freedom after so many years of hard labor.
< Message edited by mikeman2 -- 4/27/2008 9:53:10 AM >
_____________________________
Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on.
-Winston Churchill.
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RE: 10 myths about atheism - 4/27/2008 12:35:00 PM
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SonInMe1
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quote:
not a Christian on this Earth who can be certain that Jesus even wore a beard, much less that he was born of a virgin or rose from the dead.
It was pulled out before He was crucifed so Christ indeed did have a beard.
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We have made considerable moral progress over the years
Well this could be debatable but I also agree. We have made progress....because of Holy Spirit indwellment. That is the major difference between the old testament and the new. Now God lives in saved people to lead them to the moral. This influences all of society.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: 10 myths about atheism - 4/27/2008 12:35:42 PM
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coleel
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Regardless of what individual atheists think they believe or don't believe they still have a god of their own which they bow to daily. It's the god that has caused more misery and heartache in this world than any other perceived deity. His name? SELF.
_____________________________
The thing formed says that nothing formed it; and that which is made is, while that which made it is not! The folly is infinite.
-Jeremy Taylor
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RE: 10 myths about atheism - 4/27/2008 3:09:54 PM
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Jhud
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While Sam Harris has his own views about such things the reality there are a number of atheists who disagree with him. For example, Richard Dawkins, one of the better known spokemen for atheism in the 21st centruy would certainly argue that atheism does have a connection to science, and disagree that "that religion is extremely beneficial to society. ", as would many other well known atheists, including a number who post here.
So I guess now we have the myths about the myths about atheism.
_____________________________
Jack
I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: 10 myths about atheism - 4/27/2008 3:15:14 PM
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ik3900
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quote:
ORIGINAL: coleel
Regardless of what individual atheists think they believe or don't believe they still have a god of their own which they bow to daily. It's the god that has caused more misery and heartache in this world than any other perceived deity. His name? SELF.
Hi coleel.
As an atheist I've often heard this and similar statements made about me and people with similar lack of theistic belief. I'm curious about whether there are examples that back such a statement up. Personally, the fact that I don't beleive in God doesn't make me any more or less selfless than any of my christian friends, nor do I "worship" myself in any sense. We all want to better ourselves through education, hard work etc but I don't see how, in my every day life, I am in anyway bowing down to the god of self, at least not any more than you yourself.
Cheers.
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RE: 10 myths about atheism - 4/27/2008 3:34:49 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
Atheists believe that there is nothing beyond human life and human understanding
"The COSMOS is all that ever was and ever will be" Carl Sagan
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (18971963)
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RE: 10 myths about atheism - 4/27/2008 3:38:51 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
Personally, the fact that I don't beleive in God doesn't make me any more or less selfless than any of my christian friends, nor do I "worship" myself in any sense. We all want to better ourselves through education, hard work etc but I don't see how, in my every day life, I am in anyway bowing down the god of self , at least not any more than you yourself.
your words convict you
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (18971963)
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RE: 10 myths about atheism - 4/27/2008 4:44:20 PM
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ik3900
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How exactly? Convict me of what? Getting out of the bed in the morning and living my life? I don't see anything "self worshiping" about that, I'm certain you do the same.
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RE: 10 myths about atheism - 4/27/2008 5:50:37 PM
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lightshineon
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I will tell you one truth about atheism, atheist will go to hell for eternity, without belief in Jesus Christ. I know it is only one truth vs. ten myths, but the truth always wins against myths.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: 10 myths about atheism - 4/27/2008 6:37:13 PM
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Starbucks880
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2) Atheism is responsible for the greatest crimes in human history.
What makes that statement so ironic (I have heard Christians use that argument) is that CHRISTIANS have been responsible for some of the most horrible attrocities in history. I am not saying anything that isn't fact. The history of Christianity is not something to be proud of.
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RE: 10 myths about atheism - 4/27/2008 6:56:13 PM
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tracydolls
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quote:
What makes that statement so ironic (I have heard Christians use that argument) is that CHRISTIANS have been responsible for some of the most horrible attrocities in history. I am not saying anything that isn't fact. The history of Christianity is not something to be proud of.
This is where you twisting it, people CLAIMING to be Christians have a horrible history, as do idol worshippers, Moslems, , etc. One thing, they are all human.
Christ Himself is who we should follow. And He said many will come in His name doing wrong.
_____________________________
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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RE: 10 myths about atheism - 4/27/2008 7:17:38 PM
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lightshineon
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You are right tracy, and I disagree about history, there have been heritics in the religon so? They were not Christians, just called themselves that. In history and present, persecuted Christians, who in the early church would save babies from rubbish heaps, the Romans threw away, and helped and help feed the poor, try to save the unborn, helped in Katrina, Helped in the Tsunumi (sp), Have missions, support orphans, MotherTheresa and leapers, help send missionaries so people can have eternal life, and not to mention people helping people secretly everyday with resources that we have as individuals and collectively. I am so proud of Christians. Remember those who have been burned, sawed in half, eaten by lions, all the time never denying the Lord. Still happens to this day, everyone forgets that. Forget the hertics, and see truth, and tracy is telling the truth. Who just six years ago flew planes into the WTC, and pentagon, beheaded our citizens. I do not get this mess of putting down people who are the hands and feet of Jesus Christ.
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ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
What makes that statement so ironic (I have heard Christians use that argument) is that CHRISTIANS have been responsible for some of the most horrible attrocities in history. I am not saying anything that isn't fact. The history of Christianity is not something to be proud of.
This is where you twisting it, people CLAIMING to be Christians have a horrible history, as do idol worshippers, Moslems, , etc. One thing, they are all human.
Christ Himself is who we should follow. And He said many will come in His name doing wrong.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: 10 myths about atheism - 4/27/2008 7:18:09 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2165
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ik3900
How exactly? Convict me of what? Getting out of the bed in the morning and living my life? I don't see anything "self worshiping" about that, I'm certain you do the same.
NO! All that I do comes from God who enables me for everything. Even my next breath.
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (18971963)
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RE: 10 myths about atheism - 4/27/2008 7:25:15 PM
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blessedinnyc
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bombers3602
2) Atheism is responsible for the greatest crimes in human history.
People of faith often claim that the crimes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were the inevitable product of unbelief. The problem with fascism and communism, however, is not that they are too critical of religion; the problem is that they are too much like religions. Such regimes are dogmatic to the core and generally give rise to personality cults that are indistinguishable from cults of religious hero worship. Auschwitz, the gulag and the killing fields were not examples of what happens when human beings reject religious dogma; they are examples of political, racial and nationalistic dogma run amok. There is no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable.
Ok, but don't claim that Christians are responsible for some of the greatest crimes in human history. We usually pull this argument when we're on defense- when Atheists are claiming some stupid pope 1000 years ago started a Crusade. Not all Christians support wars. We're simply using the argument that Atheism can be used to justify atrocities just as much as Christianity- and that sadly, Atheism has been used to justify more atrocities in the past century than Atheism.
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4) Atheists think everything in the universe arose by chance.
No one knows why the universe came into being. In fact, it is not entirely clear that we can coherently speak about the "beginning" or "creation" of the universe at all, as these ideas invoke the concept of time, and here we are talking about the origin of space-time itself.
Pi=3.14159+/- .00001
All numbers have to come from:
1.) Another number
2.) An equation that takes other numbers
3.) A probability distribution whose parameters must be described by a function; see #2, and therefore #1.
4.) Something capable of intrinsically picking a number.
Plato's dominoes shows that we can't have an infinite regression. At some point, something that existed when the progression of numbers that led up to us determining Pi started had to have picked a number. We call this thing that consciously picked various parameters for the universe "God".
That's why most of the Computer Scientists I know are at least Deists and sometimes Theists.
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Although it is possible to be a scientist and still believe in God as some scientists seem to manage it there is no question that an engagement with scientific thinking tends to erode, rather than support, religious faith. Taking the U.S. population as an example: Most polls show that about 90% of the general public believes in a personal God; yet 93% of the members of the National Academy of Sciences do not. This suggests that there are few modes of thinking less congenial to religious faith than science is.
At the University of Illinois, most of the scientists that taught us were Christians or Deists. The proportion was considerably higher in the sciences than in the liberal arts, in fact. One of my geology professors became a (liberal) Christian as a result of some of his research- because he felt it was the most logical thing.
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RE: 10 myths about atheism - 4/28/2008 5:51:46 PM
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bombers3602
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
I will tell you one truth about atheism, atheist will go to hell for eternity, without belief in Jesus Christ. I know it is only one truth vs. ten myths, but the truth always wins against myths.
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RE: 10 myths about atheism - 4/29/2008 9:21:08 AM
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freakofnature
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What about hope??? Mr. Atheist. What hope do you have? Hope that all the good you do here on this earth may get you somewhere in the afterlife. The basics of faith in Christ are that we have to accept Him as Lord and Saviour, then the things we accomplish to further His kingdom are then rewarded with an eternity next to Him in Heaven? That is some hope that all I do is not for nuttin'! So you don't accept Christ as Lord, okay, but you do what you can to help the homeless, feed the hugry, take in stray pets and then what... You are free to admit that there may be intelligent life elsewhere, fine, same here, as blessedinnyc stated, no where in the bible, that I have read, does it say that this is the only creation that God has made. And correctly speaking, no one knows how the universe came to be. I think the point there is that some people are open minded enough to see the research that points to a creation, others are close minded in thinking that there is no possibilities outside of chance and some big bang??? I, in fact, believe there may have been a big bang. Most anything of a sizable amount takes some banging, fire and work to create, where did the big bang come from? Why and when did that happen. Please sit there and stay on your high horse and look down on believers if you so choose, you no more have the answers than I do. I have hope, freedom in faith and a belief in something bigger than myself. At the end of the day, what do you have????
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RE: 10 myths about atheism - 4/29/2008 10:08:31 AM
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rnershigh
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bombers3602
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
I will tell you one truth about atheism, atheist will go to hell for eternity, without belief in Jesus Christ. I know it is only one truth vs. ten myths, but the truth always wins against myths.
It's the truth. Why would someone who doesn't want to believe in Jesus right now, want to be with him in their afterlife? Hell is the absence of being with Him for eternity. I think it is then, when you die without Jesus that you realize your mistake and realize what Hell really is.
So really, you get what you ask for. I don't think it's being unfair or mean to state the truth as lightshineon has said it.
_____________________________
O Grave! where is thy Victory?
O Death! where is thy Sting?
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